Ideas for constructing some kind of hand rails in this rock wall?q

[jymbee]

I used to be the only using these steps I built but now other, less "agile" family members would like to use them as well IF I could build some kind of handrail for balance & safety.

Perhaps drill anchor holds in the rocks and put in poles connected by... ? Any specific advice as to materials I might be able to use would be appreciated.

 

[grsthegreat]

If it was mine, id set handrail into the ground, not the rocks. Drilling rocks might cause them to split

 

[bdhsfz6]

I constructed a handrail for a friend at his lake house using 1" galvanized pipe. He had a similar stacked stone stairway leading down to the lake. We screwed pipe flanges to the rock in some places and in others, drove sections of pipe into the ground. Drilling 4 - 3/8" screw anchors in the rock to hold the flange didn't cause any splitting.

Rented a power bandsaw and a pipe threader for a weekend and connected everything together with a Stillson wrench. Used a lot of galvanized pipe fittings and bent the pipe with a torch where necessary.

Remarkably sturdy for 1" pipe and works well for steadying yourself on the stairs. That was 18 years ago and it's still in use.

 

[2manyrocks]

I am curious why you wouldnt set some posts in the ground and nail up handrails?

 

[ning]

Looks like you've got wood posts off to the right - can you hang a handrail off of those with some sort of bracket setup?
May be able to do something temporary and see how much actually use it gets before investing the effort into something that matches the aesthetics, if possible.

I doubt the rocks are a good anchor; consider the lever effects of a post attached to the rocks - unless they're a lot bigger and deeper than it looks, I think they'd get yanked out of the path in no time.

 

[flyerdan]

We did these all the time, estimator would make a templet for the spacing and angles for the slope and any curves during the run. I'd make that one out of 1.625" tube, should only need three posts set if it's as short a run as it looks.
Auger out the holes first, so if you encounter a rock or other immovable object you can make the templet fit the terrain.

 

[jymbee]

I am curious why you wouldnt set some posts in the ground and nail up handrails?

There's a series of conduits under these steps for main primary power line, phone line, water line out to the garden etc. They're spaced out a bit and not exactly sure of their precise location.

I've revisited images I took when building and have a pretty good idea, but not inclined to give it a try.

Your forum user name is another reason. Hard enough to get a tent stake in the ground around here not to mention something like this.

 

[jymbee]

Looks like you've got wood posts off to the right - can you hang a handrail off of those with some sort of bracket setup?

Yeah, those are 6x6 posts that support that portion of the main deck and I have looked at that as a possibility but the logistics of trying to make that work given the odd spacing and distance away just don't really work.

 

[jymbee]

I doubt the rocks are a good anchor; consider the lever effects of a post attached to the rocks - unless they're a lot bigger and deeper than it looks, I think they'd get yanked out of the path in no time.

The pic doesn't show it but these are pretty large rocks. Several hundred pounds at least for the most part. Maybe I'll take a shot with some kind of reference to give a better idea of the sizes and distance involved.

 

[etpm]

I needed to put a stout handrail up the center of the steps to my house. I bought some wrought handrail stock from Everett Steel that they stock. I made the uprights from 1.25" square tubing. I welded feet on the tubing and set the tubing on my stair steps. I snapped a line across the tops of the tubing to get the angle correct and sawed the tops at the snapped line. I then bolted the uprights to the stairs and laid the handrail on top of the uprights and welded them in place with a small wire feed welder. I think you could do something similar with pipe and flat stock. My handrail needed to be aesthetically pleasing, and it was and is. your handrail maybe just needs to be functional.
Eric

 

[Oaktree]

Not as many steps as you have, but this is what I did a few years ago when I put these steps in. 4x4PT posts set as deep as I could get with a shovel, 3/4" black pipe rail.

 

[2manyrocks]

I like your stonework.

 

[Captain Dirty]

A few thoughts on handrails. There are mind-numbing details about proper handrail (and guardrail--you can look up the difference on an architectual website) construction. From the original photo your steps do not comply; nor do I believe they must. As your primary consideration seems to be safety, I will offer some observations I consider common sense.

Graspability is paramount. A 4" - 5.5" circumference or cross-section perimeter should be graspable for most people. Note that a 2x4 is too large, and although "pinch-grip" rails can meet code, such rails don't provide good graspability. Those accustomed to steep and perhaps dangerous stairs such as ship's ladders know that an underhand grip provides more control and easier arrest. This points toward 1-1/2" pipe rails that are readily available, aesthetically inoffensive, and relatively inexpensive.

The code load for a handrail is 200 lbs. I think a falling 200 lb person will likely exceed that force, and the lawyer for an injured visitor would argue that the presence of a any handrail implies at least code strength. ning suggested using the wooden posts to the right that you said presented problems. The distance to the right edge of the stair treads creates long lever arm to be resisted. A diagonal brace to vertically support the rail would be easy but shear forces in a horizontal plane are more problematic.

It looks like the solution involves posts along the left edge of the treads.

 

[ultrarunner]

At an old Lake House the posts are 1” driven rebar or drilled when driven not possible with a 1.5” top rail pipe curved with pipe bender and welded to attach…

At least 80+ years in place…

The builder was a CB from WWII who did air strip construction in WWII

 

[Captain Dirty]

Thoughts on handrail posts. Given that you stated the deck posts are 6x6, the typical maximum riser height is 8", and you have added intermediate stones to get to the 2nd and third risers, it appears that the rocks are 5-8" thick slabs of a probably quarried, native stone that has many, now horizontal, cleavage planes and roughly broken non-perpendicular edges. Perhaps "easily crumbled" is more generous than "rotten". I agree with grsthegreat that drilling might cause them to split (or fracture). With Murphy as your helper you would succeed in making most holes but then split or fracture the last stone. In New England granite the edge setback rule of thumb is 7x drill diameter for impact and at least 4-6" for diamond core drilling. Those setbacks may narrow your treads too much.
This seems to leave you with hand digging to ensure missing underground utilities. I live on a hill of glacial till, digging a post hole results in a grave by the time I get stones removed. If your burried rocks are large a big rotary hammer with 1+" bit will bore them. If your rocks are smaller or softer and you can drive a crowbar to make a pilot hole land then drive 1" square stock posts. While evenly spaced posts may look nicer, even spacing is not absolutely necessary. Good luck!

 

[ultrarunner]

Here is what National Park used at Half Dome…

 

[jymbee]

Thoughts on handrail posts. Given that you stated the deck posts are 6x6, the typical maximum riser height is 8", and you have added intermediate stones to get to the 2nd and third risers, it appears that the rocks are 5-8" thick slabs of a probably quarried, native stone that has many, now horizontal, cleavage planes and roughly broken non-perpendicular edges.

A bit of backstory:

Due to some geologic activity or other eons ago there's an amazing number of rocks just under the surface around here running the whole length of the valley. Many much larger than the ones shown here in my OP.

When I dug a 900' trench to install the underground utilities, I was using my Case 580 Construction King backhoe and well remember hooking on to one of these and discovering what I was trying to dig out was at least 6 feet long and over a foot thick.

When I had a local excavator dig out an area for the slab of the new garage, the rocks here were all dug out of that footprint! Made a nice wall at least.

Perhaps "easily crumbled" is more generous than "rotten". I agree with grsthegreat that drilling might cause them to split (or fracture). With Murphy as your helper you would succeed in making most holes but then split or fracture the last stone.

It's almost like you and Mr. Murphy have been looking over my shoulder with too many of my projects lately. But yes, "easily crumbled" is a good description as you can probably see in the above where even the largest rocks are apt to have multiple horizontal seams.

The intermediate stones you noted were just place there recently give me some ideas for what I eventually want to do, find the right size rocks to mortar in larger intermediate stones. I've got pallets full of rocks I've rescued from the stream bed on the property, many would likely work well for that purpose.

Taking into consideration all of the good input here (thanks all!) I'm now leaning toward doing something with the 6x6 supports along the side of the steps. Beyond my skill level but there's some pretty skilled welders around here that might be able to come up with ideas as to how to use them to anchor a railing.

 

[dicktill]

<snip>

Taking into consideration all of the good input here (thanks all!) I'm now leaning toward doing something with the 6x6 supports along the side of the steps. Beyond my skill level but there's some pretty skilled welders around here that might be able to come up with ideas as to how to use them to anchor a railing.

If that's the case, perhaps moving the steps closer to the 6x6's would make the whole job easier and more esthetic?

 

[jymbee]

If that's the case, perhaps moving the steps closer to the 6x6's would make the whole job easier and more esthetic?

Moving? Surely you jest!