JD Right to Repair

[DanMc77]

I thought of posting a comment pertaining to this on the John Deere Parts thread that has been going on for a while, but thought that this could derail that thread, so here's a new one that is focused on this issue.

Modern technology can be very handy -- when it works right. But when it starts to flake out, or "posts a code", where do you start? in Sept, JD made a sacrificial offering in response (which was a big nothingburger) to a Right to Repair lawsuit and said that repair manuals and some stuff would be available, but the access to key software, etc, would remain restricted.

I'm sticking with older machines that have none of this nonsense software, even though I'm a software engineer myself. My newest tractor is the 2210, with no electronics, no codes, and no problems. There's no way in h3ll I'm going to be getting anything newer that requires DEF and goes into conniptions with a regeneration cycle, not to mention what happens when an electronic module goes burp.

Similarly, who wants to sign up to get one of these highly autonomous cars that does everything for you? Sure, that might be handy, but just wait a few years. These things are just packed with sensors and electronic modules that are loaded up with software. Good luck fixing that yourself, and try taking it to a backyard mechanic that works for a reasonable rate. You become the slave of the dealer, who rapes you for diagnostic services and software updates. This is a battle that farmers are fighting with JD even now.

 

[5030]

of you have a good scan tool and the adapter, all is good. My Autel can handle anything but it's not cheap.

 

[ovrszd]

I see both sides of this discussion.

First, JDs side. The technology has improved the equipment efficiency beyond measure. The added cost very soon pays for itself thru this efficiency. For example, JDs GPS Guidance system. Tremendous savings in seed costs when planting, no doubling up. Tremendous savings in chemical and fertilizer costs, again no doubling up. When shelling corn the combine is always on the row. It's always signaling the operator about what's happening within the machine. Minimizes capacity overrun. Records yield information and creates a map of the field that can be used next Spring when applying chemical/fertilizer. I could go on and on, but I'll stop to save space. So the farmer benefits from this technology. To the point it pays for itself in savings.

Second, opposition to JDs side. The problem that arises when access to the technology is needed. To give the owner complete access to the technology for repair purposes opens the door to their data secrets. To give the owner the ability to reset codes for example also gives the owner the ability to be deceptive in warranty debates. For example, engine overheated because of no cooling system maintenance. Machine repeatedly coded. Owner got access to the JD Link and deleted all of the codes. Then claimed it never notified him. Or,,, owner wants/needs a bit more HP. Access to JDs system allows him to "tweak" the fuel system to gain that power. After all, he's the owner and should be able to do that. Fine and dandy until something goes wrong.

Third, my position. I am grateful for the technology. I don't want to run a 20 year old machine for a living. I want the latest/greatest features. Increases productivity. Increases profits. Increases quality of production. I am willing to educate myself on the use of such technology to get the most benefit. I respect the limitations. I accept the sometimes frustrating consequences. As long as the equipment is under warranty I don't expect unlimited access to the technology.

There are things about the technology that is aggravating. But the gain far outweighs those things.

 

[beenthere]

ovrszd: Very well stated.

And if JD gives it out, then the Chinese steal it. Or other brands take it and run with it without doing the expensive engineering and design work. Crazy world, and Dan has the right idea.. buy the old technology as long as possible. And hope Deere will keep supplying any old parts.
Auto dealers have some expensive equipment too, and have to have highly-paid mechanics that know (hopefully) how to run that equipment. Quite a battle going on between JD dealers to keep their trained mechanics as a dealer that is short one trained mechanic has to pay some big bucks to hire a knowledgeable mechanic away from another dealer. Can't leave the farmers sitting in the field with a sensor bad on a $400,000 machine.
And neighbors brother was making well over $100/hour at a JD dealer and was hired away by a trucking firm at double that because he was both knowledgeable and good. Neighbor bummed because he enjoyed the JD connection.

One can go to some of the farming YouTube channels and see how farmers deal with the "RtR" problems and work with dealers as well as do their own fixing. One good channel (IMO) is the Farming, Fixing & Fabricating. Educational and entertaining, and no drama. Day to day fixing and dealing with the new technology which for me is quite interesting. The computer technology and having to deal with it is here. Our world will adapt, as it has for the last 100 years no matter how hard we stomp our feet and protesteth.

 

[oldnslo]

I see this affecting the smaller family farms more than larger family or corporate farms since larger farms tend to lease equipment vs smaller farms owning equipment. Most leases I have been exposed to have some language about service and maintenance so they get priority on service while small guys sit and wait or keep running older equipment that is getting more and more wore out.

Yes technology is great when it works but the tough question to answer is what is return on investment for smaller farms that may only plant a few hundred acres vs a few thousand.

 

[bigtiller]

I switch from gas to diesel in 2000. I wished I would have switched 15 years sooner. The extra torque is amazing! BUT, I always parked it facing the garage door and the door had to be up before starting it, otherwise the garage and soon after, the house would smell bad.

This fall I bought a tier 4 JD tractor (3039R)
It doesn't stink up the place like my old 2720 does.
AND, if I let the dealer service it annually, they will extend the warranty to 10 years.

I think tier 4 will work out just fine for me.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

As a tech, it is annoying when the machine is deemed too old to be worked on at the dealer, but the ECU is still behind a firewall. Giving people access allows a longer service life for the machine. Giving people access to automotive ECUs for repair hasn't cost the OEMs any sales.

Restricting access is more about keeping the Chinese from replicating and duplicating (Chinese for R&D), than anything.

 

[Dwellonroof]

As a tech, it is annoying when the machine is deemed too old to be worked on at the dealer, but the ECU is still behind a firewall. Giving people access allows a longer service life for the machine. Giving people access to automotive ECUs for repair hasn't cost the OEMs any sales.

Restricting access is more about keeping the Chinese from replicating and duplicating (Chinese for R&D), than anything.

The Chinese are most likely the people building the ECU for Deere.

 

[WinterDeere]

My newest tractor is the 2210, with no electronics, no codes, and no problems. There's no way in h3ll I'm going to be getting anything newer that requires DEF and goes into conniptions with a regeneration cycle, not to mention what happens when an electronic module goes burp.

Not really sure I understand your aversion. Nothing as small as the machines you own requires DEF, that starts around 75 hp. As to the electronics, they only make the tractor more reliable, not less.

In every one of these threads, people seem to confuse reliability with ease of repair. Old machines were easier to repair, they needed to be, as they were less reliable. But if you can prevent a breakdown in the first place, then the complexity added toward that aim is justified. It's a ***** when it breaks, but the electronics themselves fail so seldomly, it's always the electromechanical components (i.e. sensors) that lead the failure curve.

I think Deere (and others) took the wrong path, with trying to maintain a monopoly on repair diagnostics, but I believe this whole right to repair thing will ultimately be resolved in the consumer's favor. Farmers racking up sufficient hours on large equipment are getting screwed right now, but as a homeowner doing 100 - 200 hours per year on a CUT, I'm absolutely thrilled that tractor manufacturers have finally stepped into the 21st century.

Would you want to go back to a carbureted car for your daily driver, too? I love the old hot rods, but I'm glad the truck I remote-started out in the cold this morning uses modern electronic ignition and fuel injection.

 

[WinterDeere]

The Chinese are most likely the people building the ECU for Deere.

Not sure if that's true or not. But even if it is, there's a big difference between fabricating and populating a PCB, and having access to the firmware that's loaded onto the processor.

They could have both, protect their IP while providing diagnostic tools allowing 3rd party to repair. Maybe they're already headed that way, I haven't been following the latest news. This would be substantially more expensive, but it is already done in other industries.

<-- electrical engineer