kioti starting problems

[sdavies2000]

2006 kioti ck30 hst

I recently jumped on my tractor to plow the driveway, turned the key and " click" the dreaded click. it had sat for a couple weeks and it is the original batter so that was my first suspicion. Put the volt meter on it, 12.6 volts, drops to below nine when trying to crank (started doesn't engage). Also, while the key is in the "on" position, the batter starts to cook, you can hear it sizzling inside and if let go long enough, gas is emitted from the top and you start to smell sulphur. So I threw another battery in it, same thing. I then grabbed a third battery and connected it with jumper cables, eliminating the negative terminal (clamped jumper to alternator bracket) and the positive to the tractors positive lead. same thing, battery cooks and no starting. clicks and more clicks. the kioti dealer is 1.5 hours away and as it turns out I was going to be driving right past it on my way to family Christmas this weekend so I picked up a new starter. installed it lastnight, no changes. I know I know, don't just go blindly throwing new parts at things, but I figured since I was going past the dealer I'd roll the dice on the starter and pray that was it. well now im lost at what to do. I don't understand what is cooking the battery, bad ground/short circuit in the ignition system? anyone with any experience with these tractors with any ideas please enlighten me, I would appreciate it!

 

[ritcheyvs]

Based on your description, something is drawing a LOT of current when you try to crank. I don't think anything but the starter can do that (because of the main fuse).

It almost sounds like the engine is locked up. Try turning the crankshaft by hand from the front of the crankshaft. I think you can do that with the right socket, an extension, and a breaker bar. Make sure the crankshaft can rotate and is not (somehow) frozen. Be sure to turn in the direction of normal rotation. If there is some way for liquid to get into a cylinder (like a dripping injector), that can produce hydro-lock.

If you can turn the crank, I'd try the brute force test of the battery, cables, and starter. If you can securely hold the old starter, you can do this same test on it using jumper cables to connect to a battery. Be sure it is securely held, otherwise it will "jump" when it starts to spin and could short the jumpers.

Question: did the new starter include a new solenoid (or did you reuse the old one)?

 

[sdavies2000]

the starter came with a new solenoid. you don't have to crank to start cooking the battery, with the key just in the "on" position it starts to sizzle and gas up. this is the part that really confuses me.
I will try the jumper to starter test when I get home from work.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Copy. I would try the brute force test on the new, installed starter with the key off and the tractor in neutral. That should cause the engine to crank if the battery, starter, and battery cables are OK. If you have the old (external linkage) style stop solenoid there is a possibility the engine will start (unlikely with no glow plugs) so be prepared to use the manual stop lever, just in case.

Just so I'm clear, the 12.6 volt (no load) battery gets pulled down to 9- volts just by turning the key switch from off to on? This puzzles me because there is a 60 amp slow-blow fuse that "protects" EVERYTHING except the starter motor and I think it would take more than 60 amps to pull down the battery voltage or cause sizzle and gas unless the battery is bad or frozen. Is it possible someone bypassed that fuse with a wire some time in the past? That fuse should be taped to the wire bundle near the starter.

Ignoring the fact the 60 amp fuse didn't blow I have to wonder if the actual key switch is shorting internally somehow. The main load that gets current when the switch is turned to ON is the glow plugs. Maybe a glow plug is shorted? There is a spade connector on the back of the buss bar (that connects the top terminals of the glow plugs). You could try disconnecting the wire (at the spade terminal) from that buss bar to see if that changes your symptoms. The glow plugs are supposed to turn off momentarily while cranking the starter to ease the load on the battery.

There are two versions of this engine. One with an external stop solenoid on the right side of the engine that operates the manual stop lever via external linkages. The other has the stop solenoid bolted to the front of the engine block just in front of the injection pump with no visible linkages. The electrical systems are somewhat different so it would help to know which you have. Also confirm you have the roll-bar version without a cab. The cab version has a whole electrical system of its own.

 

[sdavies2000]

I will double check the voltage drop when I get home but believe the drop only occurrs when the key is turned to "start" but the battery still cooks while turned to "on".

none of the batteries I used were frozen as I took the caps off to check levels.

I am the only owner of the tractor so nothing has been bypassed.

I will do the brute force test and look into the other possibilities you mentioned when I get home.

It is a plain jane roll bar version, no cab.

Thanks a lot for your help richeyvs, Ill provide you with answers as soon as I can. really appreciate this.

 

[Kioti Paul]

I believe ritcheyvs has really given you solid advice, it also seems like you know your way around the electrical system.
Your symptoms really do seem to defy logic!

I have a couple of questions,,

1) When you measured the "below 9 volts while holding to start", was that measured at the battery terminals? (Not at the battery cable clamps)
(is there NO chance the sizzling sound is actually coming from a battery cable??)

2) When the battery cooks and begins gassing, are all cells 'boiling' more or less equally; or is 1 cell 'boiling' much more "vigorously" than the rest? Did BOTH installed batteries exhibit the same 'boiling' characteristics, ie all cells 'boiling equally?

3) Did you confirm that the engine is free to turn?

I wish you the best of luck figuring this one out; it really seems puzzling to me! Please let us know what you find.

 

[sdavies2000]

Okay so. The voltage at battery terminals (2 different batteries tested) shows no drop when switched from stop to Acc. When switched to auto warm up position, voltage drops to 4-6v. And crackling/gassing occurs.
I tried the brute force test on newly installed starter with multimeter inline at battery. Initially you could hear bendix gear jumping up but no spin or crank and voltage drops to .5v immediately!
I tried a few times and now the bendix gear doesn't even jump so likely cooked a new starter? Oh and the engine turns freely, just rotated fan by hand.
The glow plug connector is round and under a nut ontop of the first plug on the bus bar. It's very difficult to get at so wasn't able to unbolt the line. However if battery voltage drops to half a volt upon attempting brute force test, it likely doesn't matter..praying we don't get snow for a long time! My driveway is huge haha.
Oh and I don't let the battery go long enough to notice which cells are the worst. It's not a sound or smell I like very much! I do t want to wreck batteries either.it starts right away and then I stop, I don't let it boil over.

My stop lever doesn't have any linkages directly attached to it.

One other thing I noticed. When in the auto warm position and reading 4-6v, if I proceed to go further to start or crank, the voltage goes back up to 11-12 while holding key in that position.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I doubt you hurt the starter but I think you did the brute force test wrong. The meter should not be inline with anything. To do it correctly, battery cables should be connected normally at the battery and starter. Then jump from the big terminal on the solenoid (where battery + cable connects) to the small spade terminal on the solenoid using a piece of wire.. The meter plays no part in this test. From your description you may have fried your meter or (more likely) blown the fuse in the meter.

Can you confirm that the voltages were measured at the actual battery POSTS, not at the battery cable clamps or some other point. Your results are consistent with a bad/corroded battery cable, clamp, or ground connection except for the huge voltage drop at the actual battery posts (when the key is switched on).

A starter normally pulls hundreds of amps and that pulls a good battery down only a couple of volts. The main fuse should not allow more than 60 amps to flow when the key is turned so it's really hard to see turning the key to ON could draw enough current to pull the battery down 4-6 volts (at the posts). But a bad cable or ground could easily give this reading if it was measured downstream from the battery posts.

I doubt it is relevant now, but you can also deactivate the glow plugs by pulling the connector on the glow relay (on firewall).

Oh, and put those batteries back on a charger. Not good to let them sit in a discharged state.

 

[sdavies2000]

Something I forgot to mention. When I turn to auto warm and read 4-6v and proceed to attempt to crank, the voltage jumps back up to 11-12 while holding key in that position.
When I say inline what I mean is I have the leads from the meter sandwiched between the battery posts and the jaws on jumper cables. The meter didn't play any part other than tell me what the battery was doing while performing the test. I used two screw drivers. Positive from battery attached to one screwdriver placed against pos terminal on solenoid. Another screwdriver on blade connector and then held the two screwdrivers so shafts came in contact. No other way to get at the terminals on starter/solenoid. The aftermarket starter is different.
I also found that 60amp fuse and tested its continuity/resistance,it's good.

 

[Kioti Paul]

I find it very difficult to believe the "engine turned freely" from turning the fan by hand; are you SURE the actual crankshaft pulley was turning? (the fan belt wasn't just slipping???)

This really sounds like a bad battery! Was the second (installed) battery new; or removed from a different vehicle? If from a different vehicle, did you confirm it would crank that vehicle - before swapping batteries? Do both batteries make the same noise/smell?

I too am a bit confused by "with multimeter inline at battery" - That kinda sounds like you disconnected a battery cable, then connected the meter in series with the battery and cable? Which, surely couldn't have passed enough current to even activate the solenoid. Or were you just saying that you were measuring the voltage at the battery?

All that being said,,, IF the voltage (measured across the battery POSTS - NOT the cable connectors) drops from 12.5+ volts to 5 volts just from turning on the glow plugs; then I cannot imagine what else it could be, besides a bad battery!! HOWEVER, the odds of two batteries showing EXACTLY the same symptoms (right down to the same gassing/smell) must be astronomical!

I don't suppose you could turn the headlights on, without the glow plugs, and see how much that draws down the battery voltage??

Just judging from your description of the symptoms, and despite the utterly amazing coincidence of 2 bad batteries (with identical symptoms), I would think the next step would be taking both batteries to be checked out,