Kioti

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wrath

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
32
Tractor
Chevrolet R10
Hi Wrath, When I was replacing my Iseki built MF1250 I drove both the MF 1840M and 2850M. Both are excellent tractors, glad to see Massey went back to Iseki to build these machines. It finally came down to 2850M vs the Kioti DK4510. I was able to add dual rear remotes, 3rd function valve, a 72" grapple, and an 84" dual spindle rotary cutter to the DK4510 for the same price as the 2850M by itself. That's hard to pass up. So far I have been very happy with the Kioti. If prices had been at par, I would probably went with the Massey because of the 27 year experience with the 1250 but I have absolutely no regrets. I have not verified this but the Kioti dealer said that the biggest factor in price difference is the exchange rate between USA and South Korea. You can simply buy more tractor for the money. IMHO you can't go wrong with any of the choices you are currently looking at. Good luck!
I've never found anyone to complain about Massey. Even their weird little GC series.

I'm mostly interested in a digging and moving heavy crap tractor. I'm getting old. I have a zeroturn to mow and crap to clear trails. But I'm tired of digging holes slowly. I'm also tired of moving heavy crap by hand or with either a tractor too big (heavy, 2135) or too small (subcompact). I'm tired of maintaining a fleet. I don't need 4wd, but I'd use it if I had it. My experience of having a truck on 44" Boggers has taught me that you pick bigger battles when you have better equipment.

I'd like a 8.5' backhoe capability. Mostly for doing stupid things like clearing the edge of the pond or clearing ditches. Hydraulics that can keep up with me. Enough HP to force the manufacturer to install a hydrostatic drive that doesn't stall on hills (common problem I've had with the neighbors' Kubotas).

I keep settling on a 3500-4000lb tractor that can lift 2500lbs with the FEL. The problem with the smaller end is that you lose capability of the FEL and a frame that can handle a 8.5' backhoe. The problem at 4000lb is that it gets kind of big for swamp work (about half my property has water 1' below the surface) and it would be hard on my bridges.

I like the Massey tractors a lot. I like the M series. I'd probably buy it as a fully loaded open station. So all 3 sets of remotes, mid mount PTO, and probably turf tires but maybe I'd consider R4s and groove them. I grooved the neighbor's R4s on his Kubota so he didn't have to run chains anymore when plowing. Everything I have now has either R1 or turf tires and I can cope with either. Depending on model, I can probably wrangle 9-14% off MSRP depending on time of year.

The Kioti DK series piqued my interest because it seems to have a lot of tractor for the money. But around here, the money isn't that different because all of the Kioti dealers seem to want full price and appear to be in collusion. Which isn't a bad price, I think because their eye is on the Kubota market (which also won't budge on MSRP), but it leaves them vulnerable to people like me that is comparing more than just Kubota.

Within an hour I can hit all the major tractor brands. I don't much care for most of the dealers, including the closest Massey dealer. If I got a Kioti I'd probably be going out of state.

The DK4710SE would be about $39k *with a backhoe*, more or less what I want. For whatever reason, their HST tractors seem like they're really expensive. A closer comparison would probably be the DK5310SE but I don't need the horsepower (and for whatever reason, this makes the tractor way more expensive). The 2850M would be about $36k *without a backhoe* and depending on where I got the backhoe from it'd be like $6500-9000 from calling around. So about 10% more for the Massey.

I shouldn't care about resale value because I'll be honest I pretty much never sell anything until I got my money's worth... but around here driving a Kioti off the lot is like driving a Kia off the lot... it drops value by 30%. Technically I shouldn't care, but it does have my attention because there is usually something driving that perception that lead to causation.
 

IndyJay

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
439
Location
S.E. Indiana
Tractor
Kioti DK4510MS w/Loader, Grapple Prev: Massey 1250
Wrath,

"...Enough HP to force the manufacturer to install a hydrostatic drive that doesn't stall on hills..."

I had the same experience when test driving HST. I deliberately found the nearest hill to see how well it handled it. I've only owned manual shuttle on my 1250 so it may have been "operator error" but it seems everything I drove bogged down on a decent hill. My pasture has rolling hills with a few spots that are fairly steep, but my wood trails have some pretty steep ones so it was important to test that. I've had a few people tell me that even with Hydro, you need to shift to a lower gear/range. I thought "what's the point" if you still have to shift? I rarely have to shift with shuttle.

I kept my 1250 for 27 years, I don't see myselk selling the DK anytime soon so I am not worried so much about resale either. It all comes down to what you want. I initially was leery of buying away from the tractor version of "the big three" but I read a lot of reviews and it seemed most Kioti owners were happy with their purchase, and not just because of price. These are well-built tractors.
 

murphy1244

Super Star Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
19,913
Location
Ohio
Tractor
Kubota 1120 RTV Kioti DK-40, MF-135, Ventrac 4500Y
Every time these threads pop up it turns to a crapfest. We all love our machines.

I am glad I bought mine when I did, it seemed to be the best buy at the time.

The only thing I don't like are the remote valves they leak down but the loader will stay up for weeks..

Explain that..
 

K5lwq

Elite Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Messages
2,708
Location
Mineola, TX
Tractor
Kioti LK2554, Branson 4815C, Satoh Beaver, Speedex
Every time these threads pop up it turns to a crapfest. We all love our machines.

I am glad I bought mine when I did, it seemed to be the best buy at the time.

The only thing I don't like are the remote valves they leak down but the loader will stay up for weeks..

Explain that..
That is easy to explain. Your loader valve has less internal leakage than your remote valves.
 

DK35vince

Super Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
6,060
Location
western,pa.
Tractor
Kioti DK 35
I shouldn't care about resale value because I'll be honest I pretty much never sell anything until I got my money's worth... but around here driving a Kioti off the lot is like driving a Kia off the lot... it drops value by 30%. Technically I shouldn't care, but it does have my attention because there is usually something driving that perception that lead to causation.
And yet the DK 35's listed on Tractor House are asking near to or higher than I paid for mine new 20 years ago.
 

wrath

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
32
Tractor
Chevrolet R10
The problem with most HST tractors is that they are designed for minimum torque application to meet the needs of the ground contact expected. It's really expensive to design a HST to deal with the heat of putting 40+hp through it at engine stall. So they just let it blow by or worse, they choose to let the pump cavitate.

If you take a 40 year old hydrostatic garden tractor, with unlimited traction, they will stall the engine before the hydrostatic pump stalls/cavitates. Some underpowered/over-wheel-motored zero turns behave this way.

A properly size hydrostatic drive system will behave just like a geared tractor, but have pump losses to heat, and won't have to deal with irritation of a gear shift change. You just have to be willing to deal with the irritation of lost efficiency/power. You should be able to ride the hp/torque curve of the engine through the HST to hold maximum velocity for that given input torque. With a gear-driven transmission you kind of have to pick the gear at the bottom of the hill and "run it". It can give an illusion that a HST is slower, but at the end of the day you can only go so fast for a given power input.

I prefer gear driven on a simple tractor, for sure. Maximum power and if you're doing the same stuff all the time you know what gear and throttle to do everything. But what drives me towards modern HST is that you can change the responsiveness and mess with limits/cruise control. For my very soft ground, I think this will alleviate my tire spinning problem.
 

murphy1244

Super Star Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
19,913
Location
Ohio
Tractor
Kubota 1120 RTV Kioti DK-40, MF-135, Ventrac 4500Y

coobie

Super Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
5,875
Location
S.Michigan
Tractor
Kubota RTV 1100c, JD 740,Kioti DK 40 with KL401 loader .
I've never found anyone to complain about Massey. Even their weird little GC series.

I'm mostly interested in a digging and moving heavy crap tractor. I'm getting old. I have a zeroturn to mow and crap to clear trails. But I'm tired of digging holes slowly. I'm also tired of moving heavy crap by hand or with either a tractor too big (heavy, 2135) or too small (subcompact). I'm tired of maintaining a fleet. I don't need 4wd, but I'd use it if I had it. My experience of having a truck on 44" Boggers has taught me that you pick bigger battles when you have better equipment.

I'd like a 8.5' backhoe capability. Mostly for doing stupid things like clearing the edge of the pond or clearing ditches. Hydraulics that can keep up with me. Enough HP to force the manufacturer to install a hydrostatic drive that doesn't stall on hills (common problem I've had with the neighbors' Kubotas).

I keep settling on a 3500-4000lb tractor that can lift 2500lbs with the FEL. The problem with the smaller end is that you lose capability of the FEL and a frame that can handle a 8.5' backhoe. The problem at 4000lb is that it gets kind of big for swamp work (about half my property has water 1' below the surface) and it would be hard on my bridges.

I like the Massey tractors a lot. I like the M series. I'd probably buy it as a fully loaded open station. So all 3 sets of remotes, mid mount PTO, and probably turf tires but maybe I'd consider R4s and groove them. I grooved the neighbor's R4s on his Kubota so he didn't have to run chains anymore when plowing. Everything I have now has either R1 or turf tires and I can cope with either. Depending on model, I can probably wrangle 9-14% off MSRP depending on time of year.

The Kioti DK series piqued my interest because it seems to have a lot of tractor for the money. But around here, the money isn't that different because all of the Kioti dealers seem to want full price and appear to be in collusion. Which isn't a bad price, I think because their eye is on the Kubota market (which also won't budge on MSRP), but it leaves them vulnerable to people like me that is comparing more than just Kubota.

Within an hour I can hit all the major tractor brands. I don't much care for most of the dealers, including the closest Massey dealer. If I got a Kioti I'd probably be going out of state.

The DK4710SE would be about $39k *with a backhoe*, more or less what I want. For whatever reason, their HST tractors seem like they're really expensive. A closer comparison would probably be the DK5310SE but I don't need the horsepower (and for whatever reason, this makes the tractor way more expensive). The 2850M would be about $36k *without a backhoe* and depending on where I got the backhoe from it'd be like $6500-9000 from calling around. So about 10% more for the Massey.

I shouldn't care about resale value because I'll be honest I pretty much never sell anything until I got my money's worth... but around here driving a Kioti off the lot is like driving a Kia off the lot... it drops value by 30%. Technically I shouldn't care, but it does have my attention because there is usually something driving that perception that lead to causation.
Where is here? Around these parts "Michigan" Kioti does NOT lose 30% of its value when you drive it off the lot.In fact they hold there value very well.In southern Michigan most Massey dealers have left the state for whatever reasons.I used to own a Massey 1240 back in 2006 I sold it as there was no dealer support.
 
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Williy

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
979
Location
Texas
Tractor
Yanmar YT 235C Yannar YRC 60 rotary cutter, Yanmar RT72 rotary tiller B75 Backhoe & bucket & thumb
Garson where did you get the 25% lost of power???
Were you thinking of the 1950 buick where you had to
put your foot to the floor to crawl away from the stop sign?

While a hydrostatic transmission robs some usable horsepower, perhaps one or two horsepower in a 40-hp machine, the loss is negligible.

willy
 
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