My Industrial Cabin Build

Valveman

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So can this be used on any pump? Does the small pressure tank have a bladder? Does look nice for getting rid of a large pressure tank.

Any pump with a round centrifugal impeller. It doesn't work with positive displacement pumps like 12V RV pumps or piston pumps, which are not common in the water well and pump industry anyway. Yes the little 4.5 gallon size tank is all you need. The CSV makes the pump produce exactly the same amount of water as is being used, so there is no extra to fill the tank. Water goes right past the tank to the faucet(s). Water comes from the well and pump anyway, not from the tank. All the tank is for is to reduce the on/off cycles, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, not much of a tank is needed.

 
  
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WoodChuckDad

WoodChuckDad

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Thanks. Now I can stop and get some groceries on the way home today. Lol! Let us know how you like it. Need help picking a pump or anything, call us.

He gave me some help on guidelines for the pump.
I am looking at the AY mcdonald website. They have some info that will probably at least let me know what questions I can’t answer.
 

Carl_NH

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Although a CSV will work with any size tank, a 44 gallon size tank to hold 10 gallons of water is not needed. Most CSV systems work fine with a 4.5 gallon size tank that only holds 1 gallon of water. The CSV will let the pump cycle when you use more than 1 GPM, but will not let the pump shut off until you are finished using water. Even then the CSV keeps the pump running for another 30-60 seconds to make sure you are finished with the water before the pump shuts off. With the small tank the pump may cycle once for a toilet flush, but the CSV also makes the pump only cycle once for a long shower or hours of running a sprinkler. Eliminating all the cycles for the long term uses of water, it doesn't hurt if the pump cycles for every toilet flush. It will still be a lot less cycling, and you can save money and space by not purchasing the larger tank. Also, you get strong constant pressure sooner with the smaller tank. Pressure tanks are also no good for storing water, as the pressure could and most likely will be at 41 with a 40/60 switch when the power goes off, and there will be no stored water in any size pressure tank.
We have 2 Wellextrol wx205/wx203 tanks in series with a total of 24 gallons drawdown at 40-60 PSI which minimizes pump starts - they take up 20x48" but space is not an issue. We also have a 1.5 HP Goulds 10GS15 set at 365' deep, and a generator, so when the power goes out, we minimize water usage, and the storage means we have only 3-4 cycles in a day.

With or without a generator with a smaller tank, the pump will cycle a lot more with the new washing machines that cycle water on/off all the time, and a toilet flush causing the pump to cycle vs having the pump run a minute longer to build the 10 gal drawdown - there isn't a downside to having the storage to reduce cycling - just a benefit.

I agree the best point about the CSV is when you are in the shower, or sprinkling as a longer event, it will keep the pump running until demand stops, thus prolonging the life of the pump.

Your point on pump brands is spot on - the Grundfos 4" SST series are one of the best, but they are pricey - the Grundfos Model 7307-15 3/4 HP -3 Wire with control box is $1100+ and the similar Goulds GS 07GS10422 is $900 and both will pump 10 GPM at the depth of the well in question.

 

s219

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Arc fault breakers are code requirement for bedrooms -- we had to use them when we built in 2012-2013. They will detect different types of arcs and shorts that could be dangerous. Our electrician said they also detect a variety of wiring errors that otherwise might go un-noticed. Why that matters more in bedrooms than other rooms I cannot guess.

I had one arc fault breaker trip when a CFL bulb was starting to die, otherwise they have behaved the same as normal breakers in my experience.

I'd be curious why the electrician would want you to change from existing 12GA to 14GA. For sure, 12GA is overkill in some scenarios and it is harder to work with and requires appropriate switches and receptacles. Code also allows fewer 12GA wires in a junction box than 14GA, so that could pose some problems, or require larger boxes or extra boxes. But I can't see the harm. Just need to make sure every component in the circuit is rated for 20A, otherwise you'll have to derate and run a 15A breaker anyways. You'll benefit from less voltage drop and cooler wire, but not take advantage of the extra wire capacity.

Properly installed, 14GA copper wire has more than enough thermal ceiling to run a 15A circuit at capacity. Code wouldn't allow it if it didn't. If there are reasons to derate it, you have to take those into account, but it's fairly rare for properly installed Romex house wiring (it's rated for 140F ambient temp). The only place I'd really prefer 12GA is on long runs.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

WoodChuckDad

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Man... coming here for construction knowledge is helping me. Thanks guys.

It’s gonna make me spend more money. These pumps are bloody expensive. And the proper components to go with them, wire, pipe, etc. not cheap.
 

pmsmechanic

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It’s gonna make me spend more money. These pumps are bloody expensive. And the proper components to go with them, wire, pipe, etc. not cheap.
Ya but it's going to keep you from doing it twice which isn't cheap either.

I'm not building at present but the ideas here are very educational.
 

dstig1

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He's right about the smokes/CO detectors needing to be all on one circuit, and that it should be 15A with 14 ga wire. You don't want to try and wire those with 12 ga wire as it will be a PITA. Requirements here are complex - Here each BR requires a smoke and CO, and outside each sleeping area requires a smoke. Each floor also requires one Smoke and CO. There are combo units for smoke/CO that are best where you need both. Your local code may well differ from this.

As for each room requiring a circuit, that is new to me and I suspect is just what he likes. It can make sense but when you think logically about it, how much load are you going to have in a bedroom's outlets? Maybe a TV - modern flat panels draw nothing. A clock? Maybe - again nothing. Cell phone chargers - still nothing. If you came in turned on the TV and started 2 cell phones fast charging you would still be under 5A probably. But now think long term too. For a master BR maybe you will have or need a CPAP or eventually some equipment like an oxygen concentrator (my Dad did in his later years) or something else medical - even short term. So it might be wise to use one circuit for the master BR, but guest rooms? Heck, combine them all onto one 20A circuit and you will be still in overkill zone.

Big loads are in the kitchen, laundry, utility spaces (freezer?), garage and many of those are already required to be dedicated. Make sure the microwave has it's own circuit. I think it is in the code and it is a good idea. Fridge too. And DW. If you have 2 sinks in your MBath, run 2 circuits for the sink outlets, so your wife can melt down hers without tripping yours. ;)

Arc faults are required on darn near everything now. Look at my panel photo up a few pages and all those breakers with a silver label on them are AFCIs. The only ones that don't are the 220V ones, non-living spaces (garage, utility) and the circuits with GFCIs on them (mostly because I refused to doubel them up as both AFCI and GFCI as it was ridiculous - inspector never even looked at the panel...). And they love to nuisance trip too. Sanding my wood floors was a nightmare at times as one of them did not like the sander starting up. It got replaced warranty.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

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I am constantly learning from this experience.
I think I have found grunfos pump I need. First I have to verify that I am not oversizing it. It’s 16 gpm. 1.5 hp. And second I need to make sure they have it in stock. $1,100-$1,400 depending on vender. If not available then the AY McDonald shows as instock but that was over $1,700.
When I first started looking at pumps I was at lowes and the ones on the shelf were $500 for the zoeller 1 hp pump.
Then we get into pipe. The pipe at Lowes is rated 160 psi.
The pipe online is rated 200 for 1 inch and 160 for 1 1/4. For water flow 1 1/4 would be better. If my calculations were correct I should be at 126 psi with 1 1/4 and a fair bit higher with the 1 inch.
The 1 1/4 is nearly double the cost of 1 inch. So 400 feet of 1 1/4 is about $900. I also need to put some “T”’s in there for hydrants.For those I am certainly not going bigger than 1 inch. And will probably need another 3-400 feet of line. I would rather do that now than dig later
And since we are talking poly line. Where is it made. I want US made. I don’t want something leaching chemicals into my drinking water. Although the base materials for plastic are imported now so it’s hard to know if it makes a difference.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

WoodChuckDad

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Looking at all this, I can’t help wonder if this isn’t all just overkill and I’m spending money that doesn’t need to be spent.
 
 
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