My Industrial Cabin Build

Valveman

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With or without a generator with a smaller tank, the pump will cycle a lot more with the new washing machines that cycle water on/off all the time, and a toilet flush causing the pump to cycle vs having the pump run a minute longer to build the 10 gal drawdown - there isn't a downside to having the storage to reduce cycling - just a benefit.

The only downsides to having a large pressure tank or two is having to wait 7 minutes in 3 GPM shower for the tank to empty as the pressure drops from 60 to 40, the pump to come on, and finally get good strong constant pressure to the shower. With a small tank you have constant pressure in less than a minute. Also, the cost of those tanks is a downside, as they are not cheap. Space and heat are a couple other downsides. But the CSV will work with any size tank you want. Set at 58 PSI when using a 40/60 switch you still get 2 minutes of run time to fill the big tank(s).

I have a 10 gallon size tank with 2 gallons of draw. If my washing machine makes the pump come on more than 2-3 times during a load, then it is not saving water as advertised. I just leave the generator running while everyone is taking a shower and filling buckets. Fortunately, my power is very dependable and my only problem is keeping the generator gas fresh, as I forget how long it has been sitting there.
 

Valveman

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I am constantly learning from this experience.
I think I have found grunfos pump I need. First I have to verify that I am not oversizing it. It’s 16 gpm. 1.5 hp. And second I need to make sure they have it in stock. $1,100-$1,400 depending on vender. If not available then the AY McDonald shows as instock but that was over $1,700.
When I first started looking at pumps I was at lowes and the ones on the shelf were $500 for the zoeller 1 hp pump.
Then we get into pipe. The pipe at Lowes is rated 160 psi.
The pipe online is rated 200 for 1 inch and 160 for 1 1/4. For water flow 1 1/4 would be better. If my calculations were correct I should be at 126 psi with 1 1/4 and a fair bit higher with the 1 inch.
The 1 1/4 is nearly double the cost of 1 inch. So 400 feet of 1 1/4 is about $900. I also need to put some “T”’s in there for hydrants.For those I am certainly not going bigger than 1 inch. And will probably need another 3-400 feet of line. I would rather do that now than dig later
And since we are talking poly line. Where is it made. I want US made. I don’t want something leaching chemicals into my drinking water. Although the base materials for plastic are imported now so it’s hard to know if it makes a difference.

The Grundfos 16S15-14 is one of my favorite pumps. It will produce 173 PSI back pressure on the pipe when using a Cycle Stop Valve. Even so, 160# pipe will probably be fine, as the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure. But 200 PSI pipe woudl be best.

With a CSV you can use as large a pump as you want (oversize) and the CSV will make it work at low flows down to 1 GPM. At 10 GPM you will only lose 2 PSI per 100' is 1" poly. But at 16 GPM you would lose 6 PSI per 100' where the 1 1/4" would only lose 1.65 PSI per 100'.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

WoodChuckDad

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The Grundfos 16S15-14 is one of my favorite pumps. It will produce 173 PSI back pressure on the pipe when using a Cycle Stop Valve. Even so, 160# pipe will probably be fine, as the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure. But 200 PSI pipe woudl be best.

With a CSV you can use as large a pump as you want (oversize) and the CSV will make it work at low flows down to 1 GPM. At 10 GPM you will only lose 2 PSI per 100' is 1" poly. But at 16 GPM you would lose 6 PSI per 100' where the 1 1/4" would only lose 1.65 PSI per 100'.

So it sounds like the 1 inch is the better choice here?
 

deezler

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So... can you guys help me understand this? You buy a cycle stop valve so that... your well pump has to run twice as much? Basically any time you have more than a glass of water, your well pump is running continuously if you have a tap open?

Just to avoid the 40 to 60 psi swing of a normal pressure tank setup? But then if your power goes out... you have no reserve pressurized water.

What am I missing, this doesn't make any sense to me. I have zero issues with the 40 to 58 psi swing at my house... can hardly notice. Our 40 gallon pressure tank supplies many gallons of water before the well pump has to run one cycle.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

WoodChuckDad

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My issue is space. I don’t have enough. This solves my problem
 

Valveman

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So... can you guys help me understand this? You buy a cycle stop valve so that... your well pump has to run twice as much? Basically any time you have more than a glass of water, your well pump is running continuously if you have a tap open?

Just to avoid the 40 to 60 psi swing of a normal pressure tank setup? But then if your power goes out... you have no reserve pressurized water.

What am I missing, this doesn't make any sense to me. I have zero issues with the 40 to 58 psi swing at my house... can hardly notice. Our 40 gallon pressure tank supplies many gallons of water before the well pump has to run one cycle.

Pumps like to run. They are made to run 24/7/365. They last longer when running continuously than when cycling on and off. Again, you can use any size tank you want with a CSV. But normally any larger than 10 gallon size is just wasting money and space. Your 40 gallon tank holds 10 gallons of water. Without a Cycle Stop Valve your pump cycles on/off for every 10 gallons used. For a house that uses 300 gallons a day, that would be 30 cycles per day. The 4.5 gallon size tank with a CSV will cycle the same 30 times a day. A pump can survive a long time with just 30 cycles a day. But turn on a sprinkler, fill a pond or pool, run a drip system, or even have multiple people taking multiple long showers and 30 cycles a day can turn into 300 cycles per day, which isn't good. When running water for a long time the CSV makes the pump keep running, which is good. The CSV turns 300 cycles into 1 cycle, even with the small tank. Your well pump running continuously as long as water is being used is a good thing. I have a stock water well that hasn't turned off in almost 20 years so far. It will last much longer than my house well that has the small tank and cycles 30 times a day. But when I am running my garden drip system or a yard sprinkler, the pump is already running and using water in the house doesn't add a single cycle. So, my pump only cycles 30 times a day when I am not irrigating or using water elsewhere, then it doesn't even cycle once a day. It just stays running until I turn all the water off.

You don't have any "reserve water" in a 40 gallon pressure tank anyway. It would only be full and have 10 gallons in it if it had shut off at 60 PSI just before the power went off. Otherwise you have no control of if having 10 gallons or 1 gallon in it when the power goes off. Murphy's law says it will always be at 41 PSI and only have 1 gallon of water in it when the power goes off. If you want reserve water, put a couple of 5 gallon water jugs in a closet for small amounts and get a generator for long power outages.

You can "hardly notice" the pressure bouncing from 40 to 58 when in the shower because you have never had constant pressure. The difference in strong constant pressure and a 40/60 swing is tremendous. By using a CSV to hold the pressure at a constant 50 the entire time the shower is on, you won't even need soap. :)

The Cycle Stop Valve is designed to solve all the problems caused by pump cycling. Some of the things destroyed by cycling the pump include the pressure switch, start capacitor, start relay, check valve, pump, motor, as well as other things. Cycling the pump also surges the well, which can stir up sediment and even cause contamination issues. Cycling the pump causes sprinklers to shoot out far and then close, instead of hitting the right spot every time around, as well as pressure fluctuation in the house and shower. If you are not having any of these problems, you don't need a Cycle Stop Valve. But then again, why would you not want a Cycle Stop Valve and never have to experience these problems?

It is one of those things that if you have never tried it, you don't know what you are missing. If you don't like it for any reason I will take it back. But in 30 years no one has ever sent one back. The CSV is an easy adder to a 40 gallon size tank. That way you get the best of both worlds. But is a short time you will come to understand the 40 gallon tank is 10 times larger than needed with a CSV.
 
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WoodChuckDad

WoodChuckDad

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Seems that like most supplies lately, I am on an epic quest. The Grundfos pump is not available anywhere. There appears to be an AY McDonald stainless available. The impeller is a type of plastic. Given the downward spiral of our supply chain I think I should just grab it and be glad.
 

Valveman

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405
Location
Lubbock,TX
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International, Kubota, Komatsu
Seems that like most supplies lately, I am on an epic quest. The Grundfos pump is not available anywhere. There appears to be an AY McDonald stainless available. The impeller is a type of plastic. Given the downward spiral of our supply chain I think I should just grab it and be glad.

I had some on order for months. Better get it when the getting is good!
 
 
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