My Industrial Cabin Build

dstig1

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The only downside to a sheet of plywood is that it is shockingly hard to pound in the nails on the cable staples into plywood. A lot easier if you stick a pine 1x (or 2x) board where you want to nail down the wires. You could even put it right on top of the plywood.
 

EddieWalker

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I think I missed something on the placement of the box. Is it going on an internal wall? All the external walls are SIPS, so wouldn't it have to go on an internal wall?

Why not just remove one stud?

I hate mounting a panel on plywood. It should be in the wall and all the wires should be covered by sheetrock. This isn't CODE, it's just best practice to having a nice house
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

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I wrote all this last night but apparently it didn’t send.
I put up a 37 inch wide piece of 3/4 plywood over the hole. Wife painted it white. I will mount the panel this week. I’m not removing the 12 g wire. Its been pulled and cut. Replacing is just gonna cost me money.
I don’t like changing horses in mid stream for no good reason. My reason for going with 12 was heat resistance. But I honestly don’t know much about it. I based it on conversation with people who have more experience than I do.
With lots of the pieces of building this house I have done so much research that it becomes noise. And sometimes you have to step back and just stop and make a decision.
I don’t have the time or ability to research everything or quite frankly, I would never have time to swing a hammer.
But, I need to get up to speed fast on this electrical wiring stuff. I’m not trying to get a PHD. I am trying to make sure that what I am doing is the right move.
With a 200 amp panel 10 feet from the point of entry to the house, and a 100 amp sub panel on the other side of the house. I feel that I should have plenty of capacity.
Electrician said I have to keep all the rooms separate which I had been doing. Said we need all smoke detectors on same circuit ( So they all sound if there is an alert?) said to use 14g for this. and said all bedrooms need to be on arc fault.
I started reading code again specifically about arc fault and it looked like everything needs to be on arc fault. If that is the case, why do they sell regular breakers any more?
Oh add to it, he was pushing Generac generator pretty heavy. I was leaning toward a Cummins or Kohler. That all seems more of a Ford / Chevy thing.
This guy was recommended to me years ago when I got power run onto the property. And he installed my temp panel that I used on my camper. Price was fair. He called back on the weekend to check and make sure everything was working properly because we had temps in the teens.
So I had good experience in the past and after yesterday I am not sure. He made some good recommendations but also some that didn’t seem to make sense. And some seemed like they were for his convenience.
 
  
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BTW. Thanks to everyone who weighed in on the pump setup. I am going with a cyclestop, just need to figure out what pump and tank size is appropriate.
 

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And if you want to use some of the new WiFi electrical switches, you need the neutral in the switch box. Sometimes they will only bring the hot wire to the switch box. Not all white wires will be neutral.
That's a great point and worth emphasizing. If there is a way to wire the light boxes with the neutral wire method it will open up a much wider range of smart light device choices. Might not mean much now, but in 5 years it might really be appreciated.

Rob
 

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I never heard that every bedroom needs a GFCI? In every new house that I've been in, they use normal breakers in the box, and then run the line to a GFCI outlet right next to the box and write on the faceplate where it's going. Most homes will have half a dozen of these all lined up. Bathrooms, kitchen, laundry and whatever else has a sink. Adding bedrooms will just add a few more GFCI outlets to it, so it's not a big deal, just something new that I never heard of before.

Wiring is pretty basic in a house. Size of wire determines how many amps you can run through it. If you run too much power through a wire that is too small, it gets hot. This is how electric heaters and electric stoves work. 14 gauge wire is the smallest you can use in a house and it's only good for 15 amps. To save money, some people run 14 gauge wire and a 15 amp breaker for their lights. I think it's a waste of time and money when you already have 12 gauge and a 20 amp breaker for each bedroom. So what if the light in that bedroom goes off if the breaker trips. How often does anybody overload a 20 amp breaker in a bedroom? It never happens. In the kitchen, it could happen all the time, but that's also why you run dedicated 20 amp lines to things like the microwave, garbage disposal, and refrigerator. Then split the kitchen outlets into two banks of 20 amp outlets so your good if you are using a toaster, blender and a coffee pot all at the same time.

Other then the kitchen, there really isn't any other room in the house that sucks up very much power.
 

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I never heard that every bedroom needs a GFCI? In every new house that I've been in, they use normal breakers in the box, and then run the line to a GFCI outlet right next to the box and write on the faceplate where it's going. Most homes will have half a dozen of these all lined up. Bathrooms, kitchen, laundry and whatever else has a sink. Adding bedrooms will just add a few more GFCI outlets to it, so it's not a big deal, just something new that I never heard of before.
Arc fault is different than ground fault circuits. Don't know the details myself, but they are two different types of protection.
 

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Hi David,

Can you post the pump details from Aqua Science 15 GPM setup quoted as your well/pump will be at 190', 20 GPM output, and water averages around 70' as I recall?

The Goulds 7GS 3/4HP will easily pump 8-10 GPM, and the 10 GS 3/4HP will average around 10-12 GPM at the depth you are running.

You should look at the pump flow charts and for your application I would not get more than a 3/4 HP 10 GPM (10 GS series).

Definitely get the Cycle Stop Valve to prevent pump cycling and then a 8-12 Gal drawdown bladder tank, otherwise each time you run a faucet or use any water the pump will run - and the start/stops is what kills pump life.

I would keep the system simple and not get into the variable speed pumps.

Carl

Although a CSV will work with any size tank, a 44 gallon size tank to hold 10 gallons of water is not needed. Most CSV systems work fine with a 4.5 gallon size tank that only holds 1 gallon of water. The CSV will let the pump cycle when you use more than 1 GPM, but will not let the pump shut off until you are finished using water. Even then the CSV keeps the pump running for another 30-60 seconds to make sure you are finished with the water before the pump shuts off. With the small tank the pump may cycle once for a toilet flush, but the CSV also makes the pump only cycle once for a long shower or hours of running a sprinkler. Eliminating all the cycles for the long term uses of water, it doesn't hurt if the pump cycles for every toilet flush. It will still be a lot less cycling, and you can save money and space by not purchasing the larger tank. Also, you get strong constant pressure sooner with the smaller tank. Pressure tanks are also no good for storing water, as the pressure could and most likely will be at 41 with a 40/60 switch when the power goes off, and there will be no stored water in any size pressure tank.
 

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I appreciate you weighing in. Since you are here, what pump would you recommend? Provided, that I could find it with the way supplies are going these days. Any particular vendor you would recommend?
Goulds, AY McDonald, Flint and Walling, and several others are good. However, I prefer Grundfos or a copy of, as they have Stainless Steel instead of plastic impellers and also drop amps better than any pump when using a CSV.
 

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Why would anybody want you to remove a bigger wire that's already in place for a smaller wire that cannot handle as much power?

You can never go wrong with a bigger wire, it's just more expensive, but if it's already in place, you can easily run a 15 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire.
Actually wire for a submersible should be as small as possible. Using the longest length of the smallest wire possible for the horsepower pump being used, makes for a reduced voltage soft start. Smaller wire prevents the motor from getting too much current on start up. For a 1HP I would use 250' of #14 wire, even if I have to double up some of it and stuff it down the well. This will cause 36% less torque on startup and still deliver plenty of power for normal running.
 

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The pump quoted was 10gpm. It would produce 15gallins per mijute. I am definately houng to avoid the computerized drive. I am at the end of the line for power here. It isnpretty stable most of the time but we have som big storms and wind and lots of people lose power. Spikes are not uncommon.

Lightning and power surges are just one of many problems associated with variable speed pumps. They really are and expensive tar baby when you get stuck with one. Here is a video I found showing how much more a variable speed will cost and how much more energy they use over time. I am making another video with a column for Cycle Stop Valves that will show how the CSV beats both the VFD and conventional pressure tank systems on cost and supplying water dependably for years and years.
 
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buckeyefarmer

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Goulds, AY McDonald, Flint and Walling, and several others are good. However, I prefer Grundfos or a copy of, as they have Stainless Steel instead of plastic impellers and also drop amps better than any pump when using a CSV.

My grundfos circulating pumps have plastic impellers.
 

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Arc faults are new since I built. If you don’t have them , you can still use regular breakers. New code requires them so you have to install them. They sense a short that isn’t a dead short, that wouldn’t trip on over current. The kind that gradually warms up the wire and starts a fire.
I hear they are a pain though, go bad a lot.

My bathrooms are all on one GFI circuit. First one has a gfi, then the rest are normal receptacles fed from the gfi.
Counter circuits the same, at least 2 separate counter circuits required. My open dining area was considered kitchen, so they are on a 3rd gfi. Also, my outside deck gfi could not be ran from an inside gfi.
 

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Actually wire for a submersible should be as small as possible. Using the longest length of the smallest wire possible for the horsepower pump being used, makes for a reduced voltage soft start. Smaller wire prevents the motor from getting too much current on start up. For a 1HP I would use 250' of #14 wire, even if I have to double up some of it and stuff it down the well. This will cause 36% less torque on startup and still deliver plenty of power for normal running.

Eddie was talking about internal house wiring that was already pulled, not pump wiring.
 

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My grundfos circulating pumps have plastic impellers.
I think those are considered "composite" instead of plastic, but yeah. However, all Grundfos 4" and larger submersible well pumps that I know of have Stainless impellers. The 3" well pumps called the SQ have composite as well. It is not so much the material the impellers are made of as the design of the impeller that makes it drop in amps as the flow is reduced, which is what I like.
 

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Eddie was talking about internal house wiring that was already pulled, not pump wiring.

Lol! Sorry! I think you would want house wiring as large as possible to keep the heat down. But it is completely different for a well pump.
 

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Yes on smoke detectors on same circuit.
 
  
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I called the number on the Cyclestop website, talked to one of the guys there, and just placed an order for a PK125-1 60psi.
Now I need to order the rest of my stuff.
 

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I called the number on the Cyclestop website, talked to one of the guys there, and just placed an order for a PK125-1 60psi.
Now I need to order the rest of my stuff.

Thanks. Now I can stop and get some groceries on the way home today. Lol! Let us know how you like it. Need help picking a pump or anything, call us.
 

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I called the number on the Cyclestop website, talked to one of the guys there, and just placed an order for a PK125-1 60psi.
Now I need to order the rest of my stuff.

So can this be used on any pump? Does the small pressure tank have a bladder? Does look nice for getting rid of a large pressure tank.
 

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So can this be used on any pump? Does the small pressure tank have a bladder? Does look nice for getting rid of a large pressure tank.

Any pump with a round centrifugal impeller. It doesn't work with positive displacement pumps like 12V RV pumps or piston pumps, which are not common in the water well and pump industry anyway. Yes the little 4.5 gallon size tank is all you need. The CSV makes the pump produce exactly the same amount of water as is being used, so there is no extra to fill the tank. Water goes right past the tank to the faucet(s). Water comes from the well and pump anyway, not from the tank. All the tank is for is to reduce the on/off cycles, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, not much of a tank is needed.

 
  
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Thanks. Now I can stop and get some groceries on the way home today. Lol! Let us know how you like it. Need help picking a pump or anything, call us.

He gave me some help on guidelines for the pump.
I am looking at the AY mcdonald website. They have some info that will probably at least let me know what questions I can’t answer.
 

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Although a CSV will work with any size tank, a 44 gallon size tank to hold 10 gallons of water is not needed. Most CSV systems work fine with a 4.5 gallon size tank that only holds 1 gallon of water. The CSV will let the pump cycle when you use more than 1 GPM, but will not let the pump shut off until you are finished using water. Even then the CSV keeps the pump running for another 30-60 seconds to make sure you are finished with the water before the pump shuts off. With the small tank the pump may cycle once for a toilet flush, but the CSV also makes the pump only cycle once for a long shower or hours of running a sprinkler. Eliminating all the cycles for the long term uses of water, it doesn't hurt if the pump cycles for every toilet flush. It will still be a lot less cycling, and you can save money and space by not purchasing the larger tank. Also, you get strong constant pressure sooner with the smaller tank. Pressure tanks are also no good for storing water, as the pressure could and most likely will be at 41 with a 40/60 switch when the power goes off, and there will be no stored water in any size pressure tank.
We have 2 Wellextrol wx205/wx203 tanks in series with a total of 24 gallons drawdown at 40-60 PSI which minimizes pump starts - they take up 20x48" but space is not an issue. We also have a 1.5 HP Goulds 10GS15 set at 365' deep, and a generator, so when the power goes out, we minimize water usage, and the storage means we have only 3-4 cycles in a day.

With or without a generator with a smaller tank, the pump will cycle a lot more with the new washing machines that cycle water on/off all the time, and a toilet flush causing the pump to cycle vs having the pump run a minute longer to build the 10 gal drawdown - there isn't a downside to having the storage to reduce cycling - just a benefit.

I agree the best point about the CSV is when you are in the shower, or sprinkling as a longer event, it will keep the pump running until demand stops, thus prolonging the life of the pump.

Your point on pump brands is spot on - the Grundfos 4" SST series are one of the best, but they are pricey - the Grundfos Model 7307-15 3/4 HP -3 Wire with control box is $1100+ and the similar Goulds GS 07GS10422 is $900 and both will pump 10 GPM at the depth of the well in question.

 

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Arc fault breakers are code requirement for bedrooms -- we had to use them when we built in 2012-2013. They will detect different types of arcs and shorts that could be dangerous. Our electrician said they also detect a variety of wiring errors that otherwise might go un-noticed. Why that matters more in bedrooms than other rooms I cannot guess.

I had one arc fault breaker trip when a CFL bulb was starting to die, otherwise they have behaved the same as normal breakers in my experience.

I'd be curious why the electrician would want you to change from existing 12GA to 14GA. For sure, 12GA is overkill in some scenarios and it is harder to work with and requires appropriate switches and receptacles. Code also allows fewer 12GA wires in a junction box than 14GA, so that could pose some problems, or require larger boxes or extra boxes. But I can't see the harm. Just need to make sure every component in the circuit is rated for 20A, otherwise you'll have to derate and run a 15A breaker anyways. You'll benefit from less voltage drop and cooler wire, but not take advantage of the extra wire capacity.

Properly installed, 14GA copper wire has more than enough thermal ceiling to run a 15A circuit at capacity. Code wouldn't allow it if it didn't. If there are reasons to derate it, you have to take those into account, but it's fairly rare for properly installed Romex house wiring (it's rated for 140F ambient temp). The only place I'd really prefer 12GA is on long runs.
 
  
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Man... coming here for construction knowledge is helping me. Thanks guys.

It’s gonna make me spend more money. These pumps are bloody expensive. And the proper components to go with them, wire, pipe, etc. not cheap.
 

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It’s gonna make me spend more money. These pumps are bloody expensive. And the proper components to go with them, wire, pipe, etc. not cheap.
Ya but it's going to keep you from doing it twice which isn't cheap either.

I'm not building at present but the ideas here are very educational.
 

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He's right about the smokes/CO detectors needing to be all on one circuit, and that it should be 15A with 14 ga wire. You don't want to try and wire those with 12 ga wire as it will be a PITA. Requirements here are complex - Here each BR requires a smoke and CO, and outside each sleeping area requires a smoke. Each floor also requires one Smoke and CO. There are combo units for smoke/CO that are best where you need both. Your local code may well differ from this.

As for each room requiring a circuit, that is new to me and I suspect is just what he likes. It can make sense but when you think logically about it, how much load are you going to have in a bedroom's outlets? Maybe a TV - modern flat panels draw nothing. A clock? Maybe - again nothing. Cell phone chargers - still nothing. If you came in turned on the TV and started 2 cell phones fast charging you would still be under 5A probably. But now think long term too. For a master BR maybe you will have or need a CPAP or eventually some equipment like an oxygen concentrator (my Dad did in his later years) or something else medical - even short term. So it might be wise to use one circuit for the master BR, but guest rooms? Heck, combine them all onto one 20A circuit and you will be still in overkill zone.

Big loads are in the kitchen, laundry, utility spaces (freezer?), garage and many of those are already required to be dedicated. Make sure the microwave has it's own circuit. I think it is in the code and it is a good idea. Fridge too. And DW. If you have 2 sinks in your MBath, run 2 circuits for the sink outlets, so your wife can melt down hers without tripping yours. ;)

Arc faults are required on darn near everything now. Look at my panel photo up a few pages and all those breakers with a silver label on them are AFCIs. The only ones that don't are the 220V ones, non-living spaces (garage, utility) and the circuits with GFCIs on them (mostly because I refused to doubel them up as both AFCI and GFCI as it was ridiculous - inspector never even looked at the panel...). And they love to nuisance trip too. Sanding my wood floors was a nightmare at times as one of them did not like the sander starting up. It got replaced warranty.
 
  
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I am constantly learning from this experience.
I think I have found grunfos pump I need. First I have to verify that I am not oversizing it. It’s 16 gpm. 1.5 hp. And second I need to make sure they have it in stock. $1,100-$1,400 depending on vender. If not available then the AY McDonald shows as instock but that was over $1,700.
When I first started looking at pumps I was at lowes and the ones on the shelf were $500 for the zoeller 1 hp pump.
Then we get into pipe. The pipe at Lowes is rated 160 psi.
The pipe online is rated 200 for 1 inch and 160 for 1 1/4. For water flow 1 1/4 would be better. If my calculations were correct I should be at 126 psi with 1 1/4 and a fair bit higher with the 1 inch.
The 1 1/4 is nearly double the cost of 1 inch. So 400 feet of 1 1/4 is about $900. I also need to put some “T”’s in there for hydrants.For those I am certainly not going bigger than 1 inch. And will probably need another 3-400 feet of line. I would rather do that now than dig later
And since we are talking poly line. Where is it made. I want US made. I don’t want something leaching chemicals into my drinking water. Although the base materials for plastic are imported now so it’s hard to know if it makes a difference.
 
  
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Looking at all this, I can’t help wonder if this isn’t all just overkill and I’m spending money that doesn’t need to be spent.
 

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With or without a generator with a smaller tank, the pump will cycle a lot more with the new washing machines that cycle water on/off all the time, and a toilet flush causing the pump to cycle vs having the pump run a minute longer to build the 10 gal drawdown - there isn't a downside to having the storage to reduce cycling - just a benefit.

The only downsides to having a large pressure tank or two is having to wait 7 minutes in 3 GPM shower for the tank to empty as the pressure drops from 60 to 40, the pump to come on, and finally get good strong constant pressure to the shower. With a small tank you have constant pressure in less than a minute. Also, the cost of those tanks is a downside, as they are not cheap. Space and heat are a couple other downsides. But the CSV will work with any size tank you want. Set at 58 PSI when using a 40/60 switch you still get 2 minutes of run time to fill the big tank(s).

I have a 10 gallon size tank with 2 gallons of draw. If my washing machine makes the pump come on more than 2-3 times during a load, then it is not saving water as advertised. I just leave the generator running while everyone is taking a shower and filling buckets. Fortunately, my power is very dependable and my only problem is keeping the generator gas fresh, as I forget how long it has been sitting there.
 

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I am constantly learning from this experience.
I think I have found grunfos pump I need. First I have to verify that I am not oversizing it. It’s 16 gpm. 1.5 hp. And second I need to make sure they have it in stock. $1,100-$1,400 depending on vender. If not available then the AY McDonald shows as instock but that was over $1,700.
When I first started looking at pumps I was at lowes and the ones on the shelf were $500 for the zoeller 1 hp pump.
Then we get into pipe. The pipe at Lowes is rated 160 psi.
The pipe online is rated 200 for 1 inch and 160 for 1 1/4. For water flow 1 1/4 would be better. If my calculations were correct I should be at 126 psi with 1 1/4 and a fair bit higher with the 1 inch.
The 1 1/4 is nearly double the cost of 1 inch. So 400 feet of 1 1/4 is about $900. I also need to put some “T”’s in there for hydrants.For those I am certainly not going bigger than 1 inch. And will probably need another 3-400 feet of line. I would rather do that now than dig later
And since we are talking poly line. Where is it made. I want US made. I don’t want something leaching chemicals into my drinking water. Although the base materials for plastic are imported now so it’s hard to know if it makes a difference.

The Grundfos 16S15-14 is one of my favorite pumps. It will produce 173 PSI back pressure on the pipe when using a Cycle Stop Valve. Even so, 160# pipe will probably be fine, as the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure. But 200 PSI pipe woudl be best.

With a CSV you can use as large a pump as you want (oversize) and the CSV will make it work at low flows down to 1 GPM. At 10 GPM you will only lose 2 PSI per 100' is 1" poly. But at 16 GPM you would lose 6 PSI per 100' where the 1 1/4" would only lose 1.65 PSI per 100'.
 
  
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The Grundfos 16S15-14 is one of my favorite pumps. It will produce 173 PSI back pressure on the pipe when using a Cycle Stop Valve. Even so, 160# pipe will probably be fine, as the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure. But 200 PSI pipe woudl be best.

With a CSV you can use as large a pump as you want (oversize) and the CSV will make it work at low flows down to 1 GPM. At 10 GPM you will only lose 2 PSI per 100' is 1" poly. But at 16 GPM you would lose 6 PSI per 100' where the 1 1/4" would only lose 1.65 PSI per 100'.

So it sounds like the 1 inch is the better choice here?
 

deezler

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So... can you guys help me understand this? You buy a cycle stop valve so that... your well pump has to run twice as much? Basically any time you have more than a glass of water, your well pump is running continuously if you have a tap open?

Just to avoid the 40 to 60 psi swing of a normal pressure tank setup? But then if your power goes out... you have no reserve pressurized water.

What am I missing, this doesn't make any sense to me. I have zero issues with the 40 to 58 psi swing at my house... can hardly notice. Our 40 gallon pressure tank supplies many gallons of water before the well pump has to run one cycle.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

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My issue is space. I don’t have enough. This solves my problem
 

Valveman

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So... can you guys help me understand this? You buy a cycle stop valve so that... your well pump has to run twice as much? Basically any time you have more than a glass of water, your well pump is running continuously if you have a tap open?

Just to avoid the 40 to 60 psi swing of a normal pressure tank setup? But then if your power goes out... you have no reserve pressurized water.

What am I missing, this doesn't make any sense to me. I have zero issues with the 40 to 58 psi swing at my house... can hardly notice. Our 40 gallon pressure tank supplies many gallons of water before the well pump has to run one cycle.

Pumps like to run. They are made to run 24/7/365. They last longer when running continuously than when cycling on and off. Again, you can use any size tank you want with a CSV. But normally any larger than 10 gallon size is just wasting money and space. Your 40 gallon tank holds 10 gallons of water. Without a Cycle Stop Valve your pump cycles on/off for every 10 gallons used. For a house that uses 300 gallons a day, that would be 30 cycles per day. The 4.5 gallon size tank with a CSV will cycle the same 30 times a day. A pump can survive a long time with just 30 cycles a day. But turn on a sprinkler, fill a pond or pool, run a drip system, or even have multiple people taking multiple long showers and 30 cycles a day can turn into 300 cycles per day, which isn't good. When running water for a long time the CSV makes the pump keep running, which is good. The CSV turns 300 cycles into 1 cycle, even with the small tank. Your well pump running continuously as long as water is being used is a good thing. I have a stock water well that hasn't turned off in almost 20 years so far. It will last much longer than my house well that has the small tank and cycles 30 times a day. But when I am running my garden drip system or a yard sprinkler, the pump is already running and using water in the house doesn't add a single cycle. So, my pump only cycles 30 times a day when I am not irrigating or using water elsewhere, then it doesn't even cycle once a day. It just stays running until I turn all the water off.

You don't have any "reserve water" in a 40 gallon pressure tank anyway. It would only be full and have 10 gallons in it if it had shut off at 60 PSI just before the power went off. Otherwise you have no control of if having 10 gallons or 1 gallon in it when the power goes off. Murphy's law says it will always be at 41 PSI and only have 1 gallon of water in it when the power goes off. If you want reserve water, put a couple of 5 gallon water jugs in a closet for small amounts and get a generator for long power outages.

You can "hardly notice" the pressure bouncing from 40 to 58 when in the shower because you have never had constant pressure. The difference in strong constant pressure and a 40/60 swing is tremendous. By using a CSV to hold the pressure at a constant 50 the entire time the shower is on, you won't even need soap. :)

The Cycle Stop Valve is designed to solve all the problems caused by pump cycling. Some of the things destroyed by cycling the pump include the pressure switch, start capacitor, start relay, check valve, pump, motor, as well as other things. Cycling the pump also surges the well, which can stir up sediment and even cause contamination issues. Cycling the pump causes sprinklers to shoot out far and then close, instead of hitting the right spot every time around, as well as pressure fluctuation in the house and shower. If you are not having any of these problems, you don't need a Cycle Stop Valve. But then again, why would you not want a Cycle Stop Valve and never have to experience these problems?

It is one of those things that if you have never tried it, you don't know what you are missing. If you don't like it for any reason I will take it back. But in 30 years no one has ever sent one back. The CSV is an easy adder to a 40 gallon size tank. That way you get the best of both worlds. But is a short time you will come to understand the 40 gallon tank is 10 times larger than needed with a CSV.
 
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WoodChuckDad

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Seems that like most supplies lately, I am on an epic quest. The Grundfos pump is not available anywhere. There appears to be an AY McDonald stainless available. The impeller is a type of plastic. Given the downward spiral of our supply chain I think I should just grab it and be glad.
 

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Seems that like most supplies lately, I am on an epic quest. The Grundfos pump is not available anywhere. There appears to be an AY McDonald stainless available. The impeller is a type of plastic. Given the downward spiral of our supply chain I think I should just grab it and be glad.

I had some on order for months. Better get it when the getting is good!
 

Valveman

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I was talking to an installer yesterday who said he was forced to try Cycle Stop Valves because of the chip shortage for VFD's and big pressure tanks are also not available. Said he wished he had been forced to try them years ago, as he had no idea CSV's worked so
well. :rolleyes:
 

deezler

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Thanks for the explanation! Yes, probably just don't know what I am missing. Oh well, not gonna futz with my plumbing when everything is working fine.

Woodchuck, you don't have 16" of space? That sucks! My own utility room is a tiny 6x8.5'. In this tiny space we have: 200amp panel, generator transfer switch panel, pressure tank, softener, water heater, full size upright deep freezer, utility sink, and full size washer and dryer. Plus the cat's litter box behind the door. It's pretty awful in there, lol.
 

Valveman

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Thanks for the explanation! Yes, probably just don't know what I am missing. Oh well, not gonna futz with my plumbing when everything is working fine.

Woodchuck, you don't have 16" of space? That sucks! My own utility room is a tiny 6x8.5'. In this tiny space we have: 200amp panel, generator transfer switch panel, pressure tank, softener, water heater, full size upright deep freezer, utility sink, and full size washer and dryer. Plus the cat's litter box behind the door. It's pretty awful in there, lol.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. But just think of what else you could put in there if you didn't have that big pressure tank in the way. Lol! Plus, I will bet that now you are aware of some problems associated with the pump cycling on and off, you will cringe every time you hear that pressure switch click, click, click. :oops:
 

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If it ain't broke don't fix it. But just think of what else you could put in there if you didn't have that big pressure tank in the way. Lol! Plus, I will bet that now you are aware of some problems associated with the pump cycling on and off, you will cringe every time you hear that pressure switch click, click, click. :oops:
This CSV system sounds really interesting, so I googled it to see what it would take to add to my existing system. (It appears to not be a difficult thing to do.)

However, this video caught my attention, a very different viewpoint on using a Cycle Stop Valve in the system… I’m not sure my water uses fit, mostly short periods of use.

 

Valveman

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This CSV system sounds really interesting, so I googled it to see what it would take to add to my existing system. (It appears to not be a difficult thing to do.)

However, this video caught my attention, a very different viewpoint on using a Cycle Stop Valve in the system… I’m not sure my water uses fit, mostly short periods of use.

Yeah this poor guy is completely inaccurate with everything he says. I couldn't figure out why he was making up so much incorrect information. Then he offered to delete them if I pay him enough money. It is some kind of blackmail. I have reported it to the proper authorities, but they probably won't do anything about it.

We only get the intelligent customers anyway. If you look at any of the videos on his channel and think he is intelligent, we don't want your business. That guy is a nut case. We have a patented product, been in business for 30 years, and offer a money back guarantee. How can that be a scam?

Here are a few hundred intelligent comments on the Cycle Stop Valves. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

 
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Valveman

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I’m not sure my water uses fit, mostly short periods of use.

Even short period of water, your water doesn't come from a tank, it comes from the well. The tank is only to keep the pump from cycling on and off too much while the pump is delivering water as needed. When you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a small tank is all that is needed. The small tank with a CSV is more a mechanical timer than to supply any water. The CSV keeps the pump running as long as you are using water. Then the CSV fills the tank at 1 GPM rate before the pump shuts off.

A tank that holds 1 gallon of water becomes a 1 minute timer. One minute after you stop using water, as long as no other water has been used by you or anyone else in the house, the pump goes off. If within that minute you use anymore water, or anyone else in the house uses any water, the pump stays running and the 1 minute timer starts again. Cycling is eliminated by waiting to make sure you and everyone else in the house is through using water before the pump turns off.

Keeping it running is good for the pump. Short on and short off times, which is what you get even with a so called properly sized tank, is what destroys pumps and other components. Not to mention varying the pressure to the shower.

You should find someone who has actually seen a pump to get advice from. If you let someone talk you out of a little inexpensive Cycle Stop Valve, it will cost you many thousands over the years to come.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad

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Buying a pump has turned out to be a pain in the backside. Out of stock, out of stock, out of stock. I found an AY McDonad. Asked for a quote and they had problem e-mailing it to me. Now it is gone as well. I guess I will call tomorrow to check on some of these and buy whatever I can find. Good times.
 

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Seems that like most supplies lately, I am on an epic quest. The Grundfos pump is not available anywhere. There appears to be an AY McDonald stainless available. The impeller is a type of plastic. Given the downward spiral of our supply chain I think I should just grab it and be glad.
David,

Get as big as a pressure tank that will fit, 8 or 10 gallon drawdown and stack the tank in the corner as mentioned above the water softener - and use the CSV - get the best of both worlds - constant pressure when needed, less cycles and not turning on every time you brush your teeth or wash your hands - it's really simple - you want to reduce the starts/stops on the pump.

For the pump, getting a large 1HP pump - 15 GPM is actually a bad idea, it will draw more amps starting and running and be overkill for your house. A Goulds, Grundfos, or AY McDonald 3/4 HP 10 GPM model will produce 12 + GPM at your water depth and with your in flow or recovery rate of (20 GPM) , and a 7 GPM rated pump will deliver 8-10 GPM at your depth and in flow rate to the well.

Personally, I have a Goulds 10GS15 (10 GPM, 1.5HP) for 20 years, set at 365' and it pumps 14 GPM at 50 PSI most of the year, and when the well is low - dry times produces 10-11 GPM, and I wish I put in a 7 GPM 1.5 HP as it would better match our max usage (8-10 GPM) with less cycling.

The key to a long lasting water system is to size the pump and system to your usage and minimize the number of starts/stop cycles over the years, and that is best done with a "right sized pump and storage tank" and a CSV which will minimize the starts/stops and not turn on every time you draw a small amount of water.

You can do what you want, but don't over size the system - 1" pipe, 3/4 HP 7-10 GPM (will produce 8-12 GPM), a 8 gal drawdown tank would be ideal.
 
 
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