My Industrial Cabin Build

  
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WoodChuckDad

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I am still looking for a decent sized propane tank. I dont think I can bring myself to pay 4700 for the 500 or 1500 setup fee for tank rental.
Something will come up or I will feel the pinch and pay out. I already own the propane boiler. That was 2 grand. Not interested in retooling everything. A few years down the road, I could see.
Yes the mini splits will also provide heat.
Because I am builder occupant I can use wood atove as my heat source. They don’t like it but would give me a pass. So worse come to worse I could just throw a big electric water heater in and go wood stove/mini split. And be stubborn and wait. I could buy or rent a 100 gallon propane tank and just use it for cooking. I have options. I just wouldn’t have hot water during power outages until I come up with some other method. Again, I have options.
 

mike0000

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I am still looking for a decent sized propane tank. I dont think I can bring myself to pay 4700 for the 500 or 1500 setup fee for tank rental.
Something will come up or I will feel the pinch and pay out. I already own the propane boiler. That was 2 grand. Not interested in retooling everything. A few years down the road, I could see.
Yes the mini splits will also provide heat.
Because I am builder occupant I can use wood atove as my heat source. They don’t like it but would give me a pass. So worse come to worse I could just throw a big electric water heater in and go wood stove/mini split. And be stubborn and wait. I could buy or rent a 100 gallon propane tank and just use it for cooking. I have options. I just wouldn’t have hot water during power outages until I come up with some other method. Again, I have options.
Ouch, ($4700) That’s a tough pill to swallow. We built in 1996, I paid $750 for a 500 gallon buried tank, don’t remember what it cost to have it buried,…twice.
It rained the night after the tank was buried, (with no propane in it). The next morning it looked like a Uboat was breaching the yard. I found out the hard way that a empty 500 gallon propane tank has an enormous amount of buoyancy!

Mike
 

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Looks like you are in good shape to wait then. I don’t have any water during power outages, let alone hot. But I seldom have a long term outage. Don’t think I’ve ever had an outage over 12 hrs.

I’ve put my land hunting on hold.
 

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If you have the option to wait and get by until you find the right option and price for a tank, that may be the best. Then finish everything up when you can find a tank. Your SIPS house will be so energy efficient I think you'll get good heating performance from the stove, even if that means running fans or putting in a simple air handler system to move the hot air around. Wood stoves are famous for cooking you out of one room and leaving others cold, but if you can move the air around and equalize it really makes a difference. Our house (2x6 walls and spray foam) is not nearly as energy efficient as SIPS but still, for outside temps above 40F we can heat the entire first floor with just wood and keep the thermostat above the trigger point. That covers quite a chunk of heating hours during winter even if it doesn't cover the whole range. But I like knowing the HVAC system doesn't need to run until we get into the 30s outside.

There are certain markets that are over-priced and over-hyped right now, and the sensible thing to do is sit it out if you can. Building materials are one of them. I truly feel bad for folks who have no choice or no options and have to pay up. On the other hand, there was a lot of wealth generated in the last couple years and some people don't care about paying too much. I have a couple neighbors that put in garages and barns while lumber and building materials were sky high. They didn't really even pay attention to the market or know they were overpaying, they just got a quote from a builder and went ahead. But I have other neighbors that that said no-thanks and will wait, or not do it.

I can't stomach it myself. One of my neighbors paid more per square foot for an unfinished garage than was typical for a finished house a couple years ago. That is just nuts. God forbid something important breaks on our home, I will have a heart attack paying to fix it.
 

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Dad had his woodstove in the corner of the kitchen, it would roast us out of there, or if it was comfortable everyone was there getting underfoot because it was too cold everywhere else. The living room next to it was always cold. Dad cut two square openings through the wall, one stud bay wide. One high, one low, and covered them with punched brass sheet in walnut picture frames. Inside the wall he painted black. Made a big difference.
 

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I haven't heard of a mini-split that could heat water for the radiant floor, but it might exist. I am skeptical that it does...

Your only real option for going full electric would be a heat pump, either ground source or air. Being where you are, air could be a viable option as it does not get super cold. Air is much cheaper too, but you could dig for the ground source loops with your Ex easy enough, which is a good chunk of the expense. And a mini-split is really just a type of an air source heat pump.

Instant water heaters can be electric or gas, but electric is awful for this. The only case where it makes sense is as a small point of use heater far from the main heat source, like if you had a laundry far away from the main plumbing. Just too expensive to run and takes some massive wire to feed them for whole house use. We put in a couple at work for a specific need but OMG were they crazy expensive and take massive power to run. In that case, it was the only option that would work and the expense is trivial to a large Fortune 500 company. I think we spent like 40k on the equipment and plumbing for them (union plumbers...) but they are industrial grade, not what you would find in a home. The reality is that gas (natural or propane) is the only reasonable way to do an on-demand water heater.
 

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For me, a house that requires a fan to prevent one room being too hot and another being too cold is unacceptable. If acceptable then it better have been very cheap to build. If I'm in the $100 p/square foot cost or higher, then no fans required.
 
  
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I forgot to put the video link here this morning. Be warned. I am pulling and re-pulling electric wire. I am sick of it. And I am certain that everyone else is sick of it. But I know we are getting closer every day.
We had a visit from our daughter this week so I did not go work on the house after work. It was a surprise visit so I figured she was coming home to be close to family.

 
  
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There is a place in Maryland that has used above ground 250 and 320 for reasonable price. They have underground 500 that would require pressure wash and repaint (and nee anode bag) for 1500. Last week it was 1400. That would be 6.5 hours of driving round trip and I am not sure if there are any weird rules for crossing state lines with a used propane tank.
 

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There is a place in Maryland that has used above ground 250 and 320 for reasonable price. They have underground 500 that would require pressure wash and repaint (and nee anode bag) for 1500. Last week it was 1400. That would be 6.5 hours of driving round trip and I am not sure if there are any weird rules for crossing state lines with a used propane tank.
tarp.
 

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I see you finally got some cable stacker clamps. Those are a godsend for multiple cable runs in a stud bay. (y)
 
  
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I see you finally got some cable stacker clamps. Those are a godsend for multiple cable runs in a stud bay. (y)

Yeah. They only had that one type. But it seems to be doing the job. Organizing wire is a challenge.
 

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There is a place in Maryland that has used above ground 250 and 320 for reasonable price. They have underground 500 that would require pressure wash and repaint (and nee anode bag) for 1500. Last week it was 1400. That would be 6.5 hours of driving round trip and I am not sure if there are any weird rules for crossing state lines with a used propane tank.

Are these tanks refurbished ? Since you want to have your own tank do the propane suppliers you would need to get have requirements on the condition of the tanks you want to use ? Are these tanks empty ? Not sure if you can transport tanks with propane in them ?

Maybe get the 320 gallon tank to start with ? Looks like you are not going to need a tank bigger than 500 gal.
 

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For me, a house that requires a fan to prevent one room being too hot and another being too cold is unacceptable. If acceptable then it better have been very cheap to build. If I'm in the $100 p/square foot cost or higher, then no fans required.
Lol. You're certainly entitled to your opinion but thats a kinda funny hill to die on.

My house (~$160 per sq ft to build in 2015) is heated exclusively with a modest Napoleon 1450 woodstove located centrally. With a mostly open floor plan, we just have two high mounted ceiling fans that run on low (the BigAss fan is under 10 watts) and the bedrooms tend to stay just a couple degrees behind the living room. No one gets roasted out of any room, just terrific, radiant warm heating for almost free.

I'd much rather have some ceiling fans running on silent, low speed than listen to a central HVAC fan clumsily blowing as it cycles on and off all the time, blowing hot dry air in your face. But really though, whats the difference? a fan is a fan.
 

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Lol. You're certainly entitled to your opinion but thats a kinda funny hill to die on.

My house (~$160 per sq ft to build in 2015) is heated exclusively with a modest Napoleon 1450 woodstove located centrally. With a mostly open floor plan, we just have two high mounted ceiling fans that run on low (the BigAss fan is under 10 watts) and the bedrooms tend to stay just a couple degrees behind the living room. No one gets roasted out of any room, just terrific, radiant warm heating for almost free.

I'd much rather have some ceiling fans running on silent, low speed than listen to a central HVAC fan clumsily blowing as it cycles on and off all the time, blowing hot dry air in your face. But really though, whats the difference? a fan is a fan.
No one dieing on a hill here.

So you don't have fans moving hot air to cold rooms? So your house doesn't represent the house I talked about?

Our HVAC only runs to supply heat during moderate times. And it doesn't blow hot dry air in our faces at all. Your BigAss fan will cause much, much more breeze than our HVAC does. And you would sit in our living room and never know whether the HVAC was running or not.

Nothing is free in heating. Especially wood burning.
 

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I... do have fans moving hot air to cold rooms. The ceiling fans are precisely for that. We also run a pedestal fan down the hallway when it's extra cold and cloudy outside (if it's sunny, the house heats itself nice and evenly - passive solar). NBD.

Just thought your statement about what cost point allows for fans or not was kinda funny. No matter how much my house cost to build, thats how I would want to heat it; a central woodstove with gentle fans to help circulate the heat.
 
  
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WoodChuckDad Are you planning on a few ceiling fans or similar in your great room? I think it would be a good idea to help push the heat back down.

I am planning for fans. My wife doesn’t want them and keeps choosing undersized fans which I veto. I am not installing them right away. I am just going to run an extra line and terminate it in a box up in the high corner. That way it is ready to go when she decides we need a fan.
 
  
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Are these tanks refurbished ? Since you want to have your own tank do the propane suppliers you would need to get have requirements on the condition of the tanks you want to use ? Are these tanks empty ? Not sure if you can transport tanks with propane in them ?

Maybe get the 320 gallon tank to start with ? Looks like you are not going to need a tank bigger than 500 gal.

The tanks have been emptied. I found the transportation rules. Can be moved with 5% or less capacity in it. Must be marked flammable on each end and strapped with two cargo straps. Pretty simple. If you buy one at a residence that has propane in it you have to get a vendor to come out and recover the fuel. It can be done. Just a lot of dancing involved. Need to make sure the ASME tag is legible and have it installed properly.
 

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I... do have fans moving hot air to cold rooms. The ceiling fans are precisely for that. We also run a pedestal fan down the hallway when it's extra cold and cloudy outside (if it's sunny, the house heats itself nice and evenly - passive solar). NBD.

Just thought your statement about what cost point allows for fans or not was kinda funny. No matter how much my house cost to build, thats how I would want to heat it; a central woodstove with gentle fans to help circulate the heat.
No argument here. So you do uniformly heat your house with fans moving air.

As to heating costs. I've been in my house and shop 3 years this month. My wife is a meticulous book keeper. I asked her to give me the heating cost numbers. We've burned $4,350 in propane. That heats 4,320 square ft in two buildings. 1872 in the shop. 2,448 in the house. I used to burn wood in my shop. Not anymore.
 

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I am planning for fans. My wife doesn’t want them and keeps choosing undersized fans which I veto. I am not installing them right away. I am just going to run an extra line and terminate it in a box up in the high corner. That way it is ready to go when she decides we need a fan.
Yes. You should. Too late to add circuits later without a hassle.
 
  
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I bought a brand new 500 Gallon above ground Tank today. $2710 plus tax

I pick it up in Richmond next week.

I ended up calling an 800 number of a national company and one of their sales people in New Jersey was more than happy to make the sale to my business. Slapped it on my Credit card and got an invoice before they could change their mind. I will keep tally of all the expenses I incur to get it fully installed and give an update when I am done.
 
  
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No argument here. So you do uniformly heat your house with fans moving air.

As to heating costs. I've been in my house and shop 3 years this month. My wife is a meticulous book keeper. I asked her to give me the heating cost numbers. We've burned $4,350 in propane. That heats 4,320 square ft in two buildings. 1872 in the shop. 2,448 in the house. I used to burn wood in my shop. Not anymore.

Do you no longer burn wood because it is just cheaper to burn propane?
I love my wood burning stove. I love the warmth of the fire and feeling of self reliance. Part or it is the “free heat”.
Now I know that isn’t true. I own 5 chainsaws. I put fuel in them and spend time cutting wood and splitting it. But everything I cut and burn is either deadfall or standing dead trees.
I can’t keep up with the trees that fall but in the next two years I will probably cut about 10 cord and split and stack it. Eventually I wont be physically able do all that. But I built the house to be able to survive power outages without having to worry about freezing to death.
 

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Do you no longer burn wood because it is just cheaper to burn propane?
I love my wood burning stove. I love the warmth of the fire and feeling of self reliance. Part or it is the “free heat”.
Now I know that isn’t true. I own 5 chainsaws. I put fuel in them and spend time cutting wood and splitting it. But everything I cut and burn is either deadfall or standing dead trees.
I can’t keep up with the trees that fall but in the next two years I will probably cut about 10 cord and split and stack it. Eventually I wont be physically able do all that. But I built the house to be able to survive power outages without having to worry about freezing to death.
Maybe it is because of the number of times firewood warms you up, before you actually burn it?
 

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This was going around when I was a kid in the 70s -- my dad kept a copy next to our stove in the basement:

Save $$$?
Heat with Wood


First year costs:

2 stoves and installation $1385.
Removal of hot water baseboard and boiler $238.
Search for reputable wood dealer N/A $76.
Chain saw $210.
Ax, wedges, maul, cant hook, etc. $119.
Old truck (junk after 1st load) $595.
Newer truck $8645.
Tire chains $88.
Replace truck's rear window (twice) $310.
Fine for cutting wrong trees $500.
5-acre woodlot $4995.
Splitting machine $950.
14 cases of beer $126.
6 fifths ginger brandy $38.
Fine for littering $250.
Towing charge (brook to road) $50.
Gas, oil, files, Band-aids $97.
Doctor's fee (sawdust in eye) $45.
Medical cost for broken toe (dropped log) $128.
Safety shoes $35.
Attempt to fix burned hole in carpet $76.
New living room carpet $699.
Paint living room $110.
Taxes on woodlot $44.
Woodlot boundary dispute settlement $465.
Roof repair after chimney fire $840.
Fine for assaulting fireman $50.
Extension ladder $55.
Chimney brush $22.
Medical fee for broken leg (fell off roof) $478.
Chimney cleaning service $90.
Replace coffee table (chopped up and burned while too drunk to bring firewood up from cellar) $79.
Divorce settlement $14,500.
EXPENSES $36,388

Sale of hot water boiler system $125.
Fuel oil savings $376.
CREDITS $501.

NET COST OF FIRST YEAR WOOD BURNING OPERATION; $35,887.
 

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That's about right.:D
 
  
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Fortunately that has not been my experience. Although I did nearly fall off the roof at my previous house. My first year at that house I was paying $300 a month in electric and $300 a month in natural gas to heat a house that was only about 2100-2300 square feet. Terribly insulated and drafty. I didn’t think I was going to be able to keep the house so out of desperation we bought a used fireplace insert wood-stove. I already owned a 14 inch Poulan chainsaw that I had bought as storm prep for a tropical storm. I’ve bought 5 chainsaws since then. And a splitter and a truck. Maybe it has been like that.
 
  
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Crazy rain storms last night. Lots of roads washed out and our pond is riding high.
. Dropped a new video this morning.

 

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I think I read somewhere on this site that carpet padding can be used to help keep you from slipping on a metal roof.
 

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We broke ground on the homesite this weekend.
As many of you know, I have been building an orchard in the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia. 55 acres purchased in last summer 2015. We had 20-25 acres logged, leaving us with an inordinate amount of slash and debris. We have 3 acres of Apple trees in the ground right now, with the eventual goal of opening a Cidery and producing craft hard cider.
We built 1/2 miles of road and a bridge to reach the home site. and for the last couple months, I have been staying onsite on the weekends in a camper that we put where we will be building our barn/shop.
I have had the drainfield marked, and analyzed (I think that is the correct word. We dug 5 large holes and they studies the rock to make sure it would work. ) I have had the electric company come out and do a walk thru with me for the power lines to be brought in. I received the contract with he electric company on Friday and gave them a quick read thru Friday night.
I have had the contractor who will put in my foundation come up and tell me what he needs me to do to prepare the site for him to come in and do the footings and foundation.
And most importantly, My home plans were drawn up by an architect friend who designs fantastic homes and buildings and the plans were submitted to the county for approval and building permits. Last weekend it was too wet to do much work on the home site, so we burned a couple piles of slash instead.

This weekend we dug up and moved all the stumps that were in the drainfield. And started digging up the stumps in the homesite.

Before and after on the homesite

View attachment 511655

View attachment 511656

Looking down toward the drainfield. Lots of stump piles to deal with.
View attachment 511657
Lovely, my cousin is up there and her husband built the house by hand and I told her to get a tractor and clear out the woods so she can plant and grow her own food, but nothing yet.
 
  
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I think I read somewhere on this site that carpet padding can be used to help keep you from slipping on a metal roof.

I am certain I would trip over that and tumble right off the roof.
 

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I wear good tennis shoes on metal roof.

Maybe a couple dabs of the rtv sealant will keep the bird screen from rattling.
 
  
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Well I picked it up. Lets see if I can get it back home.
IMG_6927.jpg
 

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I put ip a video this morning that includes bringing home the propane tank.

 
  
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Same thing here. been raining for three days and will rain for another three. My son is home on military leave so I am being lazy and not working on the house today. He is going shooting with some friends tomorrow so i will be in there doing some electrical work.
I ordered the dryer box that I will install in the wall behind the dryer and in researching the way to install it, the dryer box website links to some UL 1 hour firestop specifications. Every other instal instruction I have found, both in print and in videos from builders don't use any insulation at all. I am torn on it. I am thinking about the way that you are not supposed to use insulation the chimney penetration thru framing because it actually builds heat up instead of releasing it and that can cause fires. In the dryer installation they don't worry about heat building up, but are more concerned with a fire being started from lint buildup and spreading to the rest of the house. Maybe 1 hour is designed to help you escape but it certainly doesn't sound like it would make a difference to the survival of the house.
I also noticed that if you are doing a renovation, they don't reference insulation at all. they don't seem to care, only with new construction so it is definitely confusing. This is just one of many things in the building of the house where it seems that things are never done the way "it is supposed to be done".
 
  
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beautiful picture, by the way. back yard or park?
 

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I ran dryer vent up inside a wall. I also doubled the wall so it would fit. It kept clogging on the bends at bottom and top, so I installed new vent pipe external to the wall.
Reminds me I need to clean it.
 
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Free Union, VA
Tractor
Kioti RX7320 Power Shuttle Cab, Komatsu PC130-6
I need to go up to the joists then 90 degree for 10 feet. I am gonna be right at the limit for the run but won't need a booster.
 

Carl_NH

Elite Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
2,738
Location
Coastal NH
Tractor
01 Kubota B21TLB, 2010 Ferris 52" ZTR, Cub Cadet 1811, Gravely Super8
 
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