Need advice on buying welder(s)

[Sublifer]

I need to get some new welding equipment. I have an el cheapo HF FC mig. Built my tractor canopy with it. I have done stick only a few times when people were showing me how to do it. I have no OA or other welding experience.

I had been thinking about one of those Everlast PowerPro multiprocess machines, maybe the 205, but I never saw anyone review them. I've been watching the welding forums for a while trying to gather ideas and advice but I think its time for me to just ask for help and opinions.

My next welding project will involve cutting and welding up to 1/2" carbon steel to build some tools and implements. I will need to weld some sheet as well on different projects. My FC mig isn't good for much... I can't do anything thicker than 1/8 but it won't do thin sheet either cuz it tends to blow holes through it. In the not too distant future I'd like to be able to weld aluminum too, maybe as much as 1/4" thick but I can't picture any thicker.

Here are my thoughts on the different processes.
-Stick: cheap, quick setup and relatively easy but also messy.
-Tig: clean but slow welds, gas makes it less portable and more complex
-FC mig: quick setup and very easy, moderately messy, can't do thin gauge
-Gas mig: clean, relatively easy, gas bottles = less portable and more complex
-OA: what everyone should start with even though I haven't. Cuts, can braze and weld but I probably wouldn't. Gas bottles again. Can warp projects.
-Plasma: quick and easy cuts but very expensive

Now of all the characteristics of the different processes, I think clean welds is probably among the top. More than half my time building my canopy was in cleaning up spatter. Yargh! I have a 5500 watt generator that I might have to use for power. No 220 outlets in the garage except for the generator but I suppose I could get it if I needed it. I am a very quick learner and do work with my hands a lot so I really like the idea of tig even though I've heard there is a learning curve.

Money is not unlimited... I'd probably cap at 1800 but would rather spend ~900.

So lets have it, what do you guys think?

 

[IslandTractor]

With 1/2 inch steel on your list of materials to weld you would certainly want a 220V machine. With sheet metal you'd ideally have either O/A or tig. As you note stick is a bit messier or harder to master than MIG/FC but there are quite a number of stick/tig machines available. I have a Miller Maxstar STH which is a dual voltage portable inverter based stick welder and does steel tig too. Expensive new but available used (I got mine for about $800 in good condition via ebay). As you note, there are some imported Chinese machines that also do stick/tig and I would imagine they do a good job. Even HF has a nice 220V tig unit for pretty cheap money on sale.

I prefer O/A for simple sheet metal jobs as it seems to be quicker for me than setting up tig with gases etc. I find it easiest to control as well. Tig welds are prettier though.

Your 5500w generator is enough power to run either a tombstone ac/dc 220V machine or something like my inverter Maxstar that would be adequate for the 1/2 inch steel assuming you are doing some prep.

I'd invest in a small but not tiny O/A setup with maybe a B acetylene tank and some low end torches from a decent manufacturer. That gives you flexibility with sheet metal and some cutting and brazing capability. You could then add either a Lincoln ac/dc tombstone for about $200 used or splurge on a dual voltage inverter based stick/tig ($400-1500) for heavier steel. Your FC machine could fill the gap for 14g to 1/4 inch.

If you can stretch your budget, pick up a used oxyfuel set up off Craigslist ($300-400 complete) and then splurge on something like a Miller 252 for $2K which I think will run at max with your generator (you should check the max amp draw though as I think a 5500w generator only puts out about 27-28amps at 220V. I also have a Miller Passport which is not rated quite as high as the 251 but it doesn't exceed the output of the generator (I have the same size generator). You can get the same basic capability of the Miller 251 or 180 with one of the better Chinese welders for a lot less money obviously and although I don't own one I'd feel pretty comfortable buying one as far as reliability etc is concerned.

Edit: Just checked the Miller specs on the Millermatic 252. It draws max 42 amps at 240v to achieve single pass 1/2 steel welding. Sounds like that is too much. The 211, 212 or 180 would be OK though but you'd definitely need to multipass the 1/2 inch stuff.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

I would not recommend the PowerPro for an average customer.

It sounds like a good I MIG 200 might be up your alley. Can get them for well less than 900.00 and they will weld stick, and with a small tig torch rig, you can do some DC scratch start TIG with them.

Ohh..yeah, dual voltage now as well... and will manage pretty well on 5500 watt generator (if its a clean power one). Around 140A on 110V though. 200 just isn't mathematically possible.

 

[Sublifer]

Thats a lot of models to look at and good information. I'll have to spend some time looking up those models and digest it. Thanks for the quick responses!

 

[Sublifer]

Okay, so it looks like both of you recommend a MIG setup. I looked at that millermatic 252. Yea, that'd be nice to single pass on 1/2" steel but deff out of my price range. It'd draw more power than my gen could provide also but I could get 220 installed in the garage... anywho. So far it looks like a 200amp mig (maybe with stick capability or separate stick unit) and an OA rig.

200amp mig is good for about 3/8" single pass right? I don't mind beveling edges, I already have 3 angle grinders

What can you do on single pass stick with 160 amps or 200 amps?

 

[IslandTractor]

The Miller 212 draws a max of 27 amps at 230V which is right at the peak output for a 5500W generator. It handles 22g sheet metal to 3/8" steel in single pass per Miller spec sheet.

The Miller Passport is a suitcase portable inverter based machine so is more efficient. It draws a max of 18A at 230V to get almost the same max output (but lower duty cycle) and is rated from 24g to 3/8" single pass.

The Miller 211 is a dual voltage machine that draws 24amps at 230V for exactly the same welding power and range as the Passport. Less expensive than the Passport and not quite as capable with 110V as it is not inverter based.

Cyberweld is a good place to check pricing on the Millers. The Passport plus is about $1600 and the 211 about $1000. No question you can save money with the Everlast for similar features/output. The PowerImig200 at about $800 would be about the most you could run off your generator and it has similar performance to the Miller 211 and Passport. While the PowerIMig also has stick features, I personally would pay the extra $200 to get the Miller 211. Nothing against the Everlasts in terms of capability but Miller products are going to be more easily supported and retain value much better. Who knows how long Everlast will be around as even though they seem to be doing well they are a very small mostly marketing company compared to Miller.

I own the Miller Passport and it is a very nice machine with a great arc. Very nice to have dual voltage capability as there are times when you don't need to run the generator (most times actually as up to 1/4 inch steel is no problem with 110V with an inverter MIG). They are pricey (again I got mine as a demo) but they have the advantage of being very portable and flexible compared to anything else. It also allows you to do true MIG rather than FC in the field as it contains an internal paintball C02 cartridge which is enough for something like 20 minutes or 15feet of weld. There are also connectors for an external tank. Very handy to be able to literally throw it into the back of the car too. Tough little bugger.

 

[jimcolt]

I have a couple of Mig welders in my shop.....an older Millermatic 250 (bought it on Craigslist for $400, works great) and a Hobart Handler 210 (bought at Tractor Supply for $799).

The handler has a lower duty cycle....but is capable of doing a decent weld on 1/2" plate...in the right hands, and does a great job on 3/8". Switch it over to a spool of .023" solid wire (use gas) and with a little experience you can do a decent job stitching sheet metal at low power. I understand that the newer versions have dual input voltage capability....and come with a spool gun for a little more money. In my opinion this is a great homeowner machine and is backed up by Hobart.....not an importer operating from a warehouse.

I use the Miller for heavier high duty cycle jobs.....but I mentioned it because if you are patient and watch Craigslist....and know what you are looking for there are deals to be had on welders.

For plasma....if you want a dual voltage unit look at the Powermax30 from Hypertherm....the list price is around $1200, but search around and you will find new ones for less. There are about 25,000 of them in the field....so used ones pop up frequently. This unit can cut 1/4" very well, and can sever 1/2" ....but I would not recommend it for regular work on 1/2".

For a used Hypertherm....watch for the Powermax600. It is a 230 volt machine.....will handle 1/2" and thicker very well...and you can often find them used for $600 to $800.

These units I mention are from major companies that will be around to back them up forever. The designs are long term.....do not get changed often, and there is free tech service and a wide range of distributors to get parts and offer advice. These products will e someday inherited by your kids...and probably won't end up in a scrap bin for 50 or more years!


Jim Colt

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

As a rule, a smaller well made weld is preferred than one large massive one...In the real world, multiple passes are required on thick materials.

Duty cycle does play a role in welding, especially mig.

With the IMIG 200, I have easily welded 22 gauge with .030 wire. Using the arc force control (inductance) feature, it allows you much greater control of the arc. Lower end, smaller transformer units will not have this feature, plus they weigh a lot more. The lightweight inverter power unit of the Everlast I MIG 200 is much more efficient and does not require as much power to run. It offers much more flexability, and better duty cycles. The arc force control makes a huge difference, especially in out of position welds(when ever you aren't welding with the weld running flat in front of you) or with the aforementioned thin gauges. If you never had it, you probably don't know what a valuable tool this is. Spatter can be tuned out as well to be non existent.

Here is a weld on 1/4" I made with an older I MIG 160, using .030 wire. I used it to weld to some tubing that I used to make a hinge on a barbque smoker (which I sold yesterday for a nice $2350 btw).

 

[jgrieve]

one option might be finding a good deal on a an old stick welder for heavy stuff and a 110 volt mig wire welder for light stuff. The mig welder uses shielding gas and welds way nicer than flux cored wire welder. I bought an Old lincon ac stick welder for 35 bucks its a good old machine, weighs about a ton. ac/dc would be better, smoother and welds thinner metal but more money. Ps I never actually got around to buying a wire welder. One thing about wire, it rusts if you have a damp shop. If the wire rusts you throw away the spool.

 

[monckywrench]

You can switch stick electrodes in seconds and stock a wide variety conveniently.

The "small MIG for sheet, stick for the rest" is common for good reason.