Need help with Diesel tank questions

[Rolando]

Hay all,
I posted this under the 'Oil, Fuel and Lubricants' forum but got no responses. I'm hoping some of you can give shed some light:

I want to set up a 300 gal diesel tank on my property and have been doing some research on it. But I have several questions that I'm hoping you all can help me with.

I've been looking at setting up the tank with the Tuthill Model #FR610CNT Fuel Pump, the Goldenrod Standard Fuel Filter, and the Goldenrod Water-Block Fuel Filter. It seemed to me a good idea to filter for both particles and water.

My questions about this are as follows:

1. What do you think about using both filter types? I don't have any reason to suspect the quality of diesel I'll be getting, but I'm in Northcentral Florida where an 80% humidity day is considered 'dry'. I'm planning to put a canvas roof over the tank and maybe paint it with an aluminum paint to try to keep it cool, but I don't know if that would be enough. What kind of paint would you recommend?

2. Is there a weight issue to the fittings on the pump with both filters connected in line and then the weight of the hose after that? I'm sure this is a stupid question, but am I correct that you would disconnect the hose from the pump, connect the two filters to the pump and then the hose to the last filter?

3. Does it matter which filter gets mounted first from the pump?

4. I notice that while the pump is rated at 15 gpm, the filters are only rated at 5 gpm. Is there a potential problem with the higher pump flow, or does the pump just cycle as needed to meet the flow demand?

5. This pump comes with a manual nozzle. What do you think about spending the extra $60 or so to get an automatic like the Tuthill Automatic Fuel Nozzle, Model #700F3144?

6. I was also thinking about getting the Tuthill Mechanical Fuel Meter Model #807CMK to be able to share the fuel with my neighbor and turn over the diesel faster. Does this meter go on the filter end of the hose, or next to the nozzle?

I know this is quite a mouth full, but I would appreciate whatever input you can give me.

 

[mouse]

5, having used manual fillers oft comes the day when you get distracted and an overflow occurs. so yes.


not familiar with the types of filters you specify - if it was my setup i'd use a racor filter as used on most boats here - it seperates water and stuff in one unit. I presume its usa manufactured.

i'd mount the water filter first in the line if you use dual filters, given they are made by the same company the manual may answer that question tho.

i'd mount your filter setup and pump on some sort of board and then your hose off that. i guess youy don't want to place stress where you do not need to as a matter of practice

as for your fuel meter - i've never seen one nozzle mounted... i'd have it post fuel filter so it doesn't get blocked.

re covering your tank - not many bother over here (actually never seen a covered tank setup) and I'd think our climate is probably more hostile than yours.


not sure bout flowrate - ask the manufacturer. but at 5gpm the filters must be pretty small/low grade - dig up a bit on what filters they use in boats as that is a very hostile environment.


not sure of your local regs but is mounting the tank overhead an option? then you don't need power to it or a pump.

 

[Gadgetnut]

Cheers, Rolando! Two and a half years ago I needed to install an above ground kerosene storage tank to supply fuel for the boiler in my house that does radiant floor heat and domestic hot water. I put in a 600 gallon tank. My local farmer's co-op supplied the tank and a 12 volt fuel pump with integrated fuel filter. I keep a plug-in battery tender attached to a marine battery, and works great. I definitely got the auto shut off fuel nozzle, I think that's worth it. I also had a very accurate fuel level gauge installed, which I like. I've run the ToolCat as well as a Kubota diesel powered lawn mower ever since without a moment's difficulty.* I don't know about the FL environment, humidity, etc., but my setup has worked out great for me. If you want to help your neighbor out with fuel delivery, that's great-- but I can't imagine the hassle of keeping track of the gallonage and accounting-- if it were me, I'd have him tell me the number of his fillups and I'd keep an eye on the fuel gauge-- and the arrangement would either work or it wouldn't. Good luck.

*Well now, that's not exactly true. Those of you who've been reading this forum for awhile *might* remember than I managed to run out of fuel while mowing out in the back forty. The low fuel indicator came on, I did one more mowing pass, and the ToolCat promptly died and would not start when I put in five gallons of diesel. I spent, ahem, several hours removing a seat or two and locating the fuel priming pump... but to save you guys some frustration, I posted detailed photographs here on the TC forum to help you find it! If you run out of fuel, do a search!

 

[Rolando]

Thanks Chris and Mouse,

i'd mount your filter setup and pump on some sort of board

The thing is, these filters are accessed from below, to replace the canisters and also they have valves below to drain sediment and water. I'll check out the Racor filter you mentioned.

not sure of your local regs but is mounting the tank overhead an option?

I wondered about that too. The problem there is that I would need to deal with the hurricane code requirements. Don't get many hurricanes here, but if we do, the winds can get pretty bad. Also, I seem to remember that someone told me using filters without a pump would be an issue.

I needed to install an above ground kerosene storage tank...I've run the ToolCat as well as a Kubota diesel powered lawn mower ever since without a moment's difficulty.

Do I understand correctly that you are running your diesel motors on kerosene? I've read others discuss using No. 2 heating oil, is that the same as kerosene? Is there a cost savings to using that over off-road diesel?

If you want to help your neighbor out with fuel delivery, that's great-- but I can't imagine the hassle of keeping track of the gallonage and accounting

Actually, I was thinking of it from the standpoint that the fuel would get turned over faster that way. I doubt that I could use 300 gallons even in a year, and to avoid paying a fuel delivery charge, I need to buy more than 200 gallons. On the accounting issue, I figured he would just keep track of how many gallons he was pumping and pay me once in a while based on the last price I payed. There's also a cost benefit because we'll split the price of the tank setup.

Chris, on the priming issue, I was lucky enough to learn my lesson without too much pain. While still under warranty, my fuel gauge went bad and I ran out of fuel with it reading 1/4 full, so I figured there was something else wrong and had the service guy come out. The first thing he did was to check that there really was fuel available, so we added more and he showed me how to prime the system. I saw first hand what a pain it would be to deal with and resolved to never get even close to running out. After correcting the fuel gauge problem, he was telling me something about the way the computer measures the amount of fuel available and that how I used and added fuel affected what the gauge indicated. I didn't understand it and it sounded very implausible to me, so that gave me additional incentive to not get anywhere near close to empty. Now, once I get under 1/4 full, I'm headed for the barn to re-fuel.

 

[mouse]

i see racor are made by parker, their webiste is not working for me at the moment.

in a boat app the filters are usually mounted to a bulkhead, in effect a board.

most of the tanks i've seen over here are gravity fed through a filter and the delivery seems to be adequate.

its not like you are trying to take onboard 2000L with 10 headers backed up behind you and 25,000 acres of wheat to get off...

does seem a lot of expense to try and avoid a delivery charge at least by aussie prices - do they sell diesel by the 44 gallon drum?


an aside, i'm figuring on making a water tank for the tray, probably about 800L which i guess is 200 gallons or so. if i make this in 304 stainless the raw sheet will cost me about $1k.

 

[mouse]

dug a bit deeper, racor is downstream filtration, the product by parker isi nterceptor.

http://www.engineprotectionequipment.com.au/public/catalogue/download.php?id=313&type=file

even the smallest filter is rated at 15gpm.

i guess this pdf is a subset of parker's cattledog.

 

[Rolando]

does seem a lot of expense to try and avoid a delivery charge at least by aussie prices

There are different issues involved. The fuel delivery surcharge relates to getting a 300 gal tank verses a 100 or 150, which would be the capacity appropriate for my sole use. Not much difference in cost between a 150 and 300 gal tank.

The cost of getting a large tank verses what I have now, which is a 30 gallon caddy with a hand pump, relates to not having to load the fuel caddy onto a trailer, strapping it down, and spending 45 minutes in travel and pumping time every time I need fuel, as opposed to just calling for a delivery when I run low.

The cost of the electric pump relates to laziness. I'm tired of all the hand-cranking it takes to fuel the machines.

 

[mouse]

granted, half your luck.

our prices/costs are much higher here for pretty well everything.

a TC new without air is about $54k give or take. a 60" brushcat is about 8k, a mover i think is 11k. and our dollar is about 95c usd.

our delivered fuel tends to be a bit higher pricewise than what we pay at the pump.

 

[Rolando]

I neglected to state one fairly major advantage to delivery, a roughly 15 to 20% savings in cost over on-road diesel.

 

[SkyPup]

Do I understand correctly that you are running your diesel motors on kerosene? I've read others discuss using No. 2 heating oil, is that the same as kerosene? Is there a cost savings to using that over off-road diesel?

Rolando, DO NOT operate your ToolCat on kerosene unless you wish to pay out the nose for major diesel engine and fuel injection pump repairs......also, #2 heating oil is NOT kerosene.

The various hypothetical fuel cost savings that you have proposed to date make absolutely no sense whatsoever if your goal is to reduce overall fuel costs$$$, as you will be paying even more for such a slim reduction in cost per gallon consumed and a very large increase in toxic emissions and crankcase oil useage?

I seriously doubt that you could even use 300 gallons a year unless you also plan to operate a licensed diesel powered on-road vehicle, but using off road untaxed diesel fuel in a road vehicle is illegal.