New Holland warning

shoppintractors · Jan 12, 2005

I will say my Kubota dealer is a great dealer in most respects, but I think he has his head in the sand when it comes to the quality and design of brands like Mahindra, and to a lesser extent Kioti.


When comparing the Kioti 'CK' line to the Mahindra '15' series I found the design of the CK to be more appealing than the Mahindra. The CK loader was custom designed for the tractor, integrated ergonomically designed joy stick, suspension seat, rubber floor mats, platform mud guards, side turn signals with integrated emergency flashers, etc.

IMO Mahindra and Kioti are both quality built machines however Kioti has the design edge when comparing the CK's to the 15's.

Don

jinman · Jan 12, 2005

( I also don't think Corriher and Tarheel are pricing artificially low. I think dealers like them are pricing to keep out competition from low priced brands and I think they are moving volume because of it. )

Bob, the competition with companies other than New Holland has nothing to do with the "New Holland Warning" to its dealers. Rather, New Holland's warning related to competition from out of state New Holland dealers, sometimes over half-way across the country.

I don't think that would even be an issue if it weren't for the service/warranty claims that get placed on local dealers. If folks here were saying that they wanted to buy an "internet tractor" and would service it themselves, then I'd be right on their bandwagon. That's not the case. One of the posters referred to dealers as "crappy" because they don't want to service internet tractors. Well, crappy is as crappy does. I think showing up on my doorstep with a tractor bought from my competitor and demanding service is... well... silly at best.

Would you take a Kubota to a New Holland dealer and demand service? What is different between a competing Kubota dealer and a competing New Holland dealer? What rule am I violating by denying you service that the other dealer didn't violate by selling a tractor outside his service area?

I'd say that if a dealer is overpriced or has lousy service, go somewhere else. But don't go back to that dealer and demand warranty service after you've bought from the competition. Why would you do that? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I sure believe it's your right to buy whatever you want from whomever you want. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tractor123 · Jan 12, 2005

Hi. My name is Ted Corriher and I am from Corriher Implement Co. I have read all of the posts in this message thread,
and there are very good posts from both sides of this issue. Today, I sent a link to this thread to the head of CNH
North America, and to the regional manager. I have been watching tractorbynet and tractorpoint for several years, and
this will be the first post I have ever made on either. Several members have asked for a dealer to explain the real
truth on sales and mostly warranty issues. I will do my best to explain impartially to my dealership.

First, I would like to thank all of the members for their time and all of their comments. It has been very good reading.

Many questions have been about pricing on tractors and parts, and how much New Holland pays on warranty work. To explain
pricing, I must tell you a little about where I am coming from. Corriher Implement is a dealership that has been in the
family since 1946, so I was definitely raised believing in the ideas of old school business and practice them to the best
of my ability. Old school business consists of fairness, honesty, and good service with a smile. I believe that old school
business should be combined with a great price and the new world of the internet. I have only tried to treat the internet
customer the same as the one that walks in the door. I started posting my prices on the internet in the early days, and they
were in line with several dealerships in the local area. My whole family has made a good living at these prices for many
years, and I did not just decide one day to lower my internet prices to see if I could harm other dealerships.

Whether you should choose to buy local or long distance depends on the situation. If you have a friendly local dealer with a
good price, then buying local would be the best idea. Most of our out of state sales are usually delivered to familiar areas
that have one nearby tractor dealership. Some of the customers have told us that the local dealer has been rude, or did not
give them personal attention. If pricing is mentioned, it is described as a take-it-or-leave-it price with no compromise
available, and if NC dealership pricing is mentioned, we have been told many dealers get very hostile.

I realize that it costs more to do business in some parts of the country, but that still doesn't account for the fact that I
can transport a tractor and equipment out of state, make a nice profit, and still save the customer quite a bit of money.
Another factor in whether or not you should choose to buy long distance or local is how mechanically minded you are. I can
explain how to repair many TC series problems by phone to a customer willing to fix the issue. Usually all that is needed
is pliers and a screwdriver. If you are have difficulty changing a lightbulb, then a local dealer would be the best for you.

A dealer telling you that he will delay work or not work on your tractor at all, simply because you purchased the same
brand tractor elsewhere, should not even be an issue. There is nothing standing in the way of working on that New Holland
tractor, no matter where it was purchased. The way the New Holland warranty actually works is this: Pickup and delivery are
thre responsibility of the customer. All parts used under warranty are reimbursed to the dealer at cost + 5%. Warranty labor
is paid at the hourly rate the dealership usually charges. New Holland gives the dealer a flat rate for some repairs based
on time. 90% of the time, our shop can beat the flat rate time. If we go over flat rate time by several hours on a large
job, then we contact our service representative and explain the extra hours. If he agrees that the extra time was warranted,
then he can adjust the hours that the dealership is reimbursed for.

As for parts, we all have the same list price for parts. Some dealers not only go over that, but by as much as 50%. List
price is good for parts and should be honored, so make sure that your dealer is offering parts at list price.

I will try to respond to any questions you have, whether by this board, email or by phone. Feel free to call me at work or
at home. Both numbers are listed in the Newton, NC phone book.

onegreenday · Jan 12, 2005

( Hi. My name is Ted Corriher and I am from Corriher Implement Co. I have read all of the posts in this message thread,
and there are very good posts from both sides of this issue. Today, I sent a link to this thread to the head of CNH
North America, and to the regional manager. )

 Welcome Ted and thanks for this good info. I'm glad that New Holland dealers are reimbursed properly for warranty repairs. It sure makes sense that NH must back up warranty repairs.

Who would want to sell a line of tractors if the manufacturer won't back warranty claims. An NH dealer told me they lost money on warranty work and I was skeptical when I was told this. So I'm glad that this has been cleared up by you. Thanks.

onegreenday · Jan 12, 2005

I hope this is on-topic: Some comments on tractor service from a tractor dealer in Ireland:

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2005/0108/farmmanagement/machinery/comment.shtml

"Compounding the problem is the fact that it's hard for dealers to hold onto service personnel, what with the long hours that are commonplace in this industry.

"I've seen plenty of mechanics leaving to go to car garages or NCT centres where there simply isn't the same degree of hardship. Keeping staff will definitely be one of the biggest challenges for machinery dealers going forward.

"Manufacturers need to take note of this- and for the most part they have. Incidents of using cheap components in hard-to-get-to places for example, are more seldom now. There's nothing worse than having to strip a tractor for a day to change a E5 hose or clip!

"Users too,'' said Cathal, "are sometimes to blame for problems. The practice of winding tractors up, which is commonplace, is a recipe for trouble. No brand is immune. Worse again is the fact that modern electronically controlled engines aren't immune either- some in the trade now ask whether you want the tractor chipped or not before quoting!''

Robert_in_NY · Jan 12, 2005

Thank you Ted for taking the time to respond. It tells me a lot about you and the way you do business. I have no doubts if I lived in your area I would have a good relationship with you and your staff. But I do stand by my belief that people should support the people that they want to support them. My dealer takes care of me because of this belief. I do what I can to help them out even to the point of helping sell other tractors and in return I never have to worry about being without a tractor or implement if something happens last minute. I can even go there off hours and get equipment to finish up my fields if something goes wrong as all it takes is a phone call.

I do feel that people need to have an honest relationship with their dealer. Honesty is what we expect when we deal with them and it is the least we can give to our dealers. From your post I feel that you believe in the same things I do.

As for internet sales, I do buy a lot of things online but if I don't have a place to do warranty work near by I will not buy it. If I don't get along with a dealership (I do have a problem with a couple dealers in this area) I will not buy their brand of equipment unless I can get parts elsewhere. So for the people that don't like their local NH dealer then I feel they should not buy a NH. If there is a reason they don't want to deal with their local dealer then they should not take their equipment to them to be repaired. Of course I am fortunate to have so many dealers in my area of all brands so that I can have a problem with one dealer of a certain color but a good relationship with another dealer of that same color. I am happy because of this but I know that a lot of areas only have a couple dealers in an area and they are not as fortunate. Buying something from out of state is something each person will have to decide if it is the best for them. Some times I can imagine it would be. If all I had to choose from was two JD dealers owned by the same guy (and I did have a problem with him) I would take my chances ordering from you and hopefully we can work something out on warranty work.

What is your policy for warranty work? If I was to call you up and tell you that one of my couplers on the rear remote was leaking on my TN would you send me a new one to replace it? Of course if it was something that needed to be diagnosed I would imagine you would not want to send me a bunch of parts to figure out which one is fautly. In the end I guess I don't have to worry about it but having boards like this one with smart people like RickB answering questions I am sure it would not be too hard to figure out a problem. Take care.

Bob_Skurka · Jan 12, 2005

Shoppingtractors wrote: 
When comparing the Kioti 'CK' line to the Mahindra '15' series I found the design of the CK to be more appealing than the Mahindra. The CK loader was custom designed for the tractor, integrated ergonomically designed joy stick, suspension seat, rubber floor mats, platform mud guards, side turn signals with integrated emergency flashers, etc. 

Don, I think Kioti has better designs than Mahindra, so I am in total agreement with you on that point. However, Mahindra has a much broader and deeper selection of tractors available in gear or HST and in more size ranges. My comments regarding Mahindra's edge over Kioti were directed more at the depth and variety than at the looks of the machines. However I was unclear in how I wrote it, and I could see why my intent was misunderstood, especially after I read it again, I admit to being very unclear.

jinman wrote: Bob, the competition with companies other than New Holland has nothing to do with the "New Holland Warning" to its dealers. Rather, New Holland's warning related to competition from out of state New Holland dealers, sometimes over half-way across the country. 

I will respectfully disagree with you regarding the competition & pricing that folks like Corriher, Tarheel or my local dealer offer. I think that CNH has its head placed firmly up a dark crevice regarding this BECAUSE I think dealers like Corriher, Tarheel and my local dealer firmly believe that ALL brands are competitors and that artificial inflation of pricing drives customers to the "minor" brands. Let's be honest here, I absolutely LOVE my New Holland, however, if I could not have gotten an excellent price (I don't mean good price, I mean excellent price) then I would have bought a different brand. Based on CNH logic, I would still have purchased a NH tractor and they would still have made the sale. Simply put they are dead wrong. I know that I can mow my lawn, climb my hills, spread my mulch and of all my other chores with ANY brand of tractor. There is no magic in the BLUE paint. I think there are some significant advantages to the CNH loaders, I've detailed those MANY times. But I also know that my Kubota's loader will lift mulch with equal ease. I also know that my TC24 has some great ergonomics and a couple pretty bad design issues (location of the headlight button!!!). And I also know that I could mow my lawn, clear my ditches and climb my hills with a John Deere, Kioti, Kubota, Mahindra, etc. As a direct competitor to the TC24 there are some brands that have an equal and some that don't but the fact is I'm not paying an excessive amount for any brand. I'm just not that brand loyal.

DUMBDOG · Jan 12, 2005

Welcome to the board Ted. Thank you very much for explaining on how you are reimbursed for warranty work. I am happy that you are making a good living at what you are doing, it keeps a lot of fun in the business.

You are right in the fact that some dealers charge excessive amounts for parts above and beyond suggested retail prices. I have only encountered this at one of the three dealers I do business with.

I do sympathize with you on the reimbursement rates for warranty work. On larger parts the 5% may cover the parts person time, on most it will not, I believe that you should be reimbursed at at a higher rate on the parts and 100% of the labor time.

Robert_in_NY · Jan 12, 2005

There is a difference between brand loyal and dealer loyal. I do not know if this thread is making it look like everyone that agrees with CNH's policy is brand loyal but if it is then it is the wrong impression. People on this board are some of the most non-brand loyal I have ever seen on a tractor board. A lot are regular shoppers but the people who do deal more in farm equipment on this site are dealer loyal and not brand loyal if that makes sense.

I do not know if Jim was thinking this but this is how I took it. New Holland does look at other brands as competitors and would rather their dealers compete with those brands then each other. Why rob another NH dealer of a sale when you can rob JD or Agco of a sale. New Holland would rather sell 2 New Holland tractors in two areas then just one tractor from one area to another.

Bob_Skurka · Jan 12, 2005

Robert, my point was that I would have bought a Kubota INSTEAD of a NH if I could not have gotten a lower price on the NH. It had nothing to do with a trip to North Carolina or a trip to my dealer only 8 miles away. Corriher did give me a price, my local dealer BEAT their price. My dealer also beat the price on a relatively similar Kubota. But had he not done that, then there would be 2 Kubota in my profile instead of a Kubota & a New Holland. So my dealer has not had to compete with another NH dealer, he had to compete with dealers of OTHER brands. New Holland would have totally lost my sale.

When I was shopping I looked at everything on the internet. I was looking for roughly a 25hp tractor, HST transmission, good loader, small frame size. Weight was secondary, but I wanted something of modest (not too light, and definately not heavy). Kioti didn't have, and still doesn't have a tractor similar to the TC24. Mahindra had a roughly similar unit, but there was no dealer in my area (or even a reasonable distance away) at the time. Deere offered the 4115, nice tractor, I'd be happy with one, my local dealer is not a service or customer friendly organization based on a few experiences there. Branson, Century, Zetor, Jinma, Kama, Kioti, etc. do not have a machine that fits my HP & size range wtih HST so all were eliminated. Kubota has machines that fit the bill. Case DX 24 obviously fits nicely and my Kubota dealer is also a Case dealer.

I think it is crazy for CNH to think that I would buy the NH at a high price if I could get a roughly equivalent tractor at a lower price from another brand. I don't see how my dealer could have competed with other brands and not have competed wtih other NH dealers, and visa versa. By competing with other brands, he by default competes with other NH dealers. But I am not going to overpay for blue paint. My grass doesn't really care what brand of blade cuts it.