Parking EVs indoors

[ponytug]

Gosh, I guess I have a different view on hydrogen. I can see a future for it industrially, but making it safe for the average homeowner is a ways out I think, and likely to stay that way. I think that the energy costs in storage and the complexity of transporting it reduces its viability as a general alternative energy source. For doing chemistry, like making green steel, or chemicals, .

To me...a choice between a gas that diffuses quickly, burns without a visible flame, goes through cracks that other gases can't penetrate, and has a wide ignition concentration versus a battery that I know where it is...
I would take the Li-ion battery any day and twice on Sunday.

Then again I have done the old soap bubbles filled with hydrogen and oxygen demonstrations a few times, so I have some experience with the detonation energy. When you get the mix right, it sounds like a .22 going off. Check out thermobaric weapons;

Thermobaric weapon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Would I put a large li-ion battery in, or adjacent to, a sleeping space, or under it? Not an icicles chance. Then again, I don't keep propane or gasoline tanks in the house either...

Some Li-ion battery units have UL approval, which means that they are pretty resistant to ignition from a cell or a pack failure.

Yes, I own a number of large Li-ion batteries, all located where meltdowns won't be a huge deal. (5 for 85kWh-ish) No, I don't own any hydrogen stores...

All the best,

Peter

 

[3930dave]

I think that there are some specific issues with garages and the upper limits on temperature alarms. Many household versions will trip at temperaturs encountered in an unconditioned garage.

@3930dave You might also look over at Mike Holts forum;
e.g.

Heat Detection for Energy Storage Systems

I have been volunteered to canvas and (hopefully) find out how other California jurisdictions are handling this wide-open-to-interpretation “reasonable alternatives”. Storage System operating conditions for ambient temperature are usually well above the 100-degree F mentioned in the bulletin...

xenforo.mikeholt.com

All the best,

Peter

Thanks for that, I'll poke around there.....

Canada (folks proximate to Osoyoos not withstanding) usually won't see High temp like your SW deserts, but the Summers here usually can be counted on to melt the igloos .

Industrial temp electronics used to be rated to -40, and plenty of Canuckland can see those temperatures, and that's often when people are using auxiliary heat in a garage - when the cheapo electronics are out of spec.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

I'd take a hydrogen fire over a Li-ion fire any day.

Ya Pay Yer Money, and Ya Pick Yer Poison..... said in my best imitation of The Duke....

My concern @ work is Lithium, Indoors. That's not a Stay in the (thread) Lane comment BTW..... so long as someone is contributing meaningful info, or at least has a funny post, I have no interest in playing thread-policenongenderspecificperson .

Hydrogen used in IC engines interests me, and in terms of outdoor leaks, I like the general safety of anything lighter than air..... one of the reasons propane is relatively dangerous.

No energy source is w/o risk..... wandering quickly through different energy-source comments here, illustrates the Process I'm trying to initiate @ work.

Understand the Threats and Scale of Impact when Things Go Wrong, and prepare to defend accordingly. Or, site the charge-stations Outdoors in my case.

If you've lived in a rural area long enough to see traffic lights added-in to crossroads (esp. with poor sight-lines), and have even a casual remembrance of a decade+ of local-news, that addition often correlates with xy deaths occurring @ same intersection.

Aside from the massive scale of a Lithium fire, what really concerns me is the speed of ignition and expansion. I'm trying to compile enough compelling evidence to ensure that charging stations for these large EVs are sited Outdoors, so we are not "adding the traffic-lights" after a high human cost.

Rgds, D.

 

[ning]

Saw this and thought about this thread: Watch: E-scooter explodes and fire engulfs room
"Video footage shows the moment an e-scooter burst into flames and then exploded while on charge in the kitchen of a north-west London house."

This is what's talked about how lithium ion batteries burn very intensely - this isn't like a typical electrical fire that starts from corrosion or a short and catches other flammables on fire; here we've got what looks like a solid rocket booster burning brightly on its own, and then of course it catches everything else on fire as well.

 

[Grumpycat]

Saw this and thought about this thread: Watch: E-scooter explodes and fire engulfs room
"Video footage shows the moment an e-scooter burst into flames and then exploded while on charge in the kitchen of a north-west London house."

This is what's talked about how lithium ion batteries burn very intensely - this isn't like a typical electrical fire that starts from corrosion or a short and catches other flammables on fire; here we've got what looks like a solid rocket booster burning brightly on its own, and then of course it catches everything else on fire as well.

How is this any different from the many flammable household chemicals of modern life?

The difference is slapdash Chinese Engineering.

Smart phones and laptops don't go busting into flames. Might be Made in China but not designed there.

 

[Jstpssng]

Smart phones and laptops don't go busting into flames.

Exploding Phones: Why It Happens, How to Prevent It

The average smartphone is unlikely to explode, but it happens. There's not much you can do if shoddy hardware is to blame, but these tips may help prevent your phone from going up in smoke.

www.pcmag.com

Why Do Phones Explode? (And How to Prevent It)

Every few years, exploding phones find a way to dominate the news cycle. And while these accidents are incredibly rare, they’re a bit difficult to understand. Why do phones explode? And how do I know that my phone won’t explode?

www.howtogeek.com

7 warning signs that your smartphone or laptop battery could explode

These are signs you should stop using your device and get it serviced as soon as possible.

www.zdnet.com

Why smart phones catch fire

It spends all day by your side and even sleeps beside you, but all that attention can make your smart phone your worst enemy.

www.ksdk.com

In fairness I could easily find as many instances of fires started because somebody improperly stored or handled their fuel can or gasoline powered device, bur I think you get the point.

There was a case a couple of weeks ago when somebody had a cordless drill in the back of their truck with the sun was beating down and it exploded, burning the truck to a crisp. Pickup truck fire outside Maine governor's mansion blamed on drill battery

This one has me a bit concerned as I normally carry my impact wrench with two batteries; my laptop; and a lithium booster pack. I am a lot more cautious now about how they are stored.

 

[Williy]

I haven't encountered any car/truck fires but experienced some
jet fighter fires and you definitely don't want to get very close
the heat is extremely HOT and you don't have to be very close
to; get a burn!!!!!

willy

 

[ning]

How is this any different from the many flammable household chemicals of modern life?

The difference is slapdash Chinese Engineering.

Smart phones and laptops don't go busting into flames. Might be Made in China but not designed there.

Once again, the difference is that the lithium ion batteries do not require any air for combustion - that's why I compare it to a solid rocket booster, where there's fuel and oxidizer in one unit ready to burn until it's all gone.

That's why you can't put out the battery fires.

ALL flammable household chemicals, once lit, can be put out, given the right extinguisher.

The lithium ion batteries will probably burn in a vacuum.

Do you understand yet?

 

[3930dave]

In fairness I could easily find as many instances of fires started because somebody improperly stored or handled their fuel can or gasoline powered device, bur I think you get the point.

Master of Destiny..... I have a chance with gasoline or diesel. The fuel stability characteristics don't drastically suddenly change, and if I'm using approved storage containers, then it's up to me to safely transfer the fuel. (Funny, ironic, how the safe storage characteristics of diesel are never mentioned).

Battery failure..... or out of spec or failed Li battery charger < those are wildcards I can do nothing about.

Li charge-control is way more critical than with any other chemistry normal consumers interact with.

Rgds, D.

 

[Jstpssng]

Master of Destiny..... I have a chance with gasoline or diesel. The fuel stability characteristics don't drastically suddenly change, and if I'm using approved storage containers, then it's up to me to safely transfer the fuel. (Funny, ironic, how the safe storage characteristics of diesel are never mentioned).

Battery failure..... or out of spec or failed Li battery charger < those are wildcards I can do nothing about.

Li charge-control is way more critical than with any other chemistry normal consumers interact with.

Rgds, D.

I also don't know many people who store 5 gallon cans of diesel in their house... unlike the lithium batteries we use to power computers and cordless tools among other things.