PTO Safety Relay M.I.A...!?

[mrtwister]

I am having intermittent starting problems with my tractor. I will turn the key to start....nothing happens immediately however within a few seconds of just leaving the key in the "start" position, electrical contact is made and it starts. I have done the "brute force starter test" as outlined here: brute-force test and the engine cranks normally when performing the "acid test". All 12V connections have been tested "OK" from the battery to the solenoid. This leads me to believe that the problem lies between the key switch and the small 12V terminal on the solenoid. I have removed and cleaned the Key Switch and Safety Start Switch with contact cleaner but the problem persists. My next thing was to swap out the 40 Amp PTO Safety Relay with a new one to see if that works before I start thinking of possibly replacing the Key Switch. As indicated in the graphic below which was copied from the shop manual, the relay is supposed to be in the middle of the panel frame once the Instrument Panel is removed. Problem is, the relay is not there on my tractor and I can't for the life of me find it anywhere. I've searched every nook and cranny in panel area cavity as well as the firewall. Tried to follow wires from PTO switch with no luck as the wires disappear within a wire loom into no-mans-land. The wiring diagram confirms there is a PTO Safety Relay but does not provide its location.

Have any other Kioti owners ever encountered this situation?...any ideas where this thing could be hiding?..I have done a subject search on the forum but have not been able to find anything related to this..thank you in advance for any help or ideas that can be provided.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I have no idea where that relay is on a DS, but I doubt that is the problem. When you worked on the key switch, did you disassemble it or just squirt it. I think the key switch is one likely cause because you probably move it slightly while holding it in start and that motion might be responsible for the connection eventually getting made. The same is true for the clutch safety switch, slight clutch pedal motion may make contact after a delay. You can (temporarily) jumper the connector for that clutch safety switch to see if it is the problem. After that, I'd check the start relay, probably by getting a replacement at a car parts place. On other Kiotis, this is a common automotive relay. In one sense, you are lucky that it eventually starts. In another sense, the intermittent nature makes it hard to find and hard to be sure it's fixed.

 

[Coyote machine]

Try this: go from off to crank on the key switch. Do you hear a click when you do so?
Now try going from off to crank, again, and if you don't hear a click, turn the key back to off, then cycle again to crank. If it starts this way it's likely the stop solenoid not always engaging, (being energized), and thus the no start condition. As Ritcheyvs said, the key switch is also a likely culprit, especially since when you leave the key in what you refer to as start position, ( are you actually referring to crank position?). When you say you leave it in start are you physically holding the key,( with force against the spring loaded switch to try to make it crank), or are you just leaving it in the 'start' position?
I seriously doubt the PTO relay has anything to do with this situation either, so long as the switch is in the off position.

 

[mrtwister]

ritcheyvs: I shied away from completely disassembling the Key Switch as I had read that it is a a somewhat dicey endeavour......so I just dismounted it and sprayed it with lots of contact cleaner inside and out. Complete disassembly will be a last resort I guess. The Starter Relay has been swapped out twice to make sure I did not buy a dud...still did not solve the problem. I will next check the Clutch Safety Switch by bypassing it as you have suggested.
I may just replace the Stop Solenoid Relay with a new one to see if that eliminates the problem.

Coyote machine: I will try your suggestion today to rule out the Stop Solenoid. You are correct....when I referred to the "start" position, I was actually referring to the "crank" position and yes I am physically holding the key against the spring loaded switch till it starts. It's almost as if holding it that way for a few seconds creates additional heat in the electrical circuit to make it engage...of course I'm just spitballing here.

Many thanks to both of you for taking the time to reply and offered up solutions....it IS appreciated...twister :thumbsup:

P.S. It would still be nice to find the PTO Safety Relay so I could replace it with a new one which would at least eliminate THAT as a/the problem.

 

[Coyote machine]

Mr T,
You're welcome. Now, lets get you up and running. If the PTO was engaged the tractor would not start, agreed?
The mere fact that it does start, even intermittently, especially when prolonging the cranking engagement by holding the key in crank position, would indicate a 'failure to communicate' between the ignition switch and the ignition circuit. Sometimes it delays starting, other times it just does not start, correct? AND the PTO relay would not interfere with this intermittant starting other than to not allow cranking to take place at all.
If it were me, I'd disassemble the key/ignition switch and/or replace it with a new one to eliminate it from the troubleshooting process. (Disassembly is not complicated, it just takes a place where if a spring or ball falls out you can retrieve it and reassemble all the parts). To my understanding, most who disassemble their switch have positive results by repacking with fresh dielectric grease.
I can't speak to the ignition switches used in the DS series Kiotis, BUT I can say that ignition/key switches used in DK and I believe some CK machines have been a nightmare, ESPECIALLY for those whose tractors live outside.
Does your DS live outside? How many hours are on it?
So, lets start at the beginning and work through logically. Yes, replacing each and every relay you can find will help eliminate the problem, eventually, BUT it's better to do what you began doing, the starter brute force test, then move on to known issues like the key switch. You got to the switch, now it's time to eliminate it, rule it out by disassembly or replacement. One either is done with the switch, then on to the next step.

 

[ritcheyvs]

CM: As I understood the issue, the starter motor doesn't turn (at least not immediately). The stop solenoid should not be a factor in that .

mrtwister: The start circuit for the 4510HS (which is the same as the 4510) and it's exceedingly simple: no electronics, just mechanical switches and relays:

This is a good thing which should simplify troubleshooting.

Oddly, even the shop manual shows a blank space where the PTO safety relay is indicated. To help convince yourself that the PTO safety relay is not the problem, you can turn the PTO on and then off while you are holding the key in crank and nothing is happening. If the PTO relay is balky, cycling it should restore the connection and the engine would crank immediately after you switch the PTO off.

Rebuilding the key switch is not hard but there are a springs inside (for the detents, return from crank, and pressure for the copper disk). The risk is that one of the springs goes flying and is never found. Electrically, the switch is very simple: each wire is soldered to a contact on the inside is the switch back. There is a copper disk with raised circular arcs which touch those contacts (or not) as the key is turned. See here.

Are you sure you replaced the correct relay? I think there are two identical relays and sometimes (even at the factory) the connectors get switched. That makes no difference in the function except the relay functions would be reversed from the labels in the service manual.

 

[mrtwister]

Coyote machine and ritcheyvs: again, thank you for offering up your time and knowledge....I wasn't expecting that you would devote more time to my problem so it's all bonus for me....it seems like you both strongly agree that the likely culprit is the Key Switch.....you may both be right on this one....at least the evidence certainly points in that direction....we had a dump of snow yesterday so I had the opportunity to use the tractor quite a bit for the clean-up....this required starting the tractor 5-6 times during the day.....it started every time without hesitation....I'm thinking that squirting the switch with the contact cleaner may have solved/alleviated the problem....or... I've been lured into a false sense of well-being until the problem rears it's ugly head again. So, I think it would be wise for me to take the Key Switch apart (I'm good at that), clean it thoroughly then put it back together (I'm not so good at that) while heeding your advice about flying springs etc..

The tractor lives inside now but it was outside for the first few years...2013 model with 760 hours. I certainly realize that living outside for that time was not so good for the electrical components and could have been the cause of this whole situation.

I had checked out the above wiring diagram in my shop manual and was perplexed by the blank space that you are referring to, although it does specify that there is a PTO Safety Relay...that little bugger has to be hiding somewhere!!....or is it possible that a relay is not required?..anyway, let's hope that is not the problem.

I will certainly report back with some sort of conclusion....thanks again....here's to you,gentlemen!!... roposetoast:....twister

 

[Coyote machine]

Kioti sells a plastic cap that has a retainer on it so it won't fly away. I strongly suggest getting one to cover the key switch slot and perimeter from moisture, dirt, etc.

Coyote machine and ritcheyvs: again, thank you for offering up your time and knowledge....I wasn't expecting that you would devote more time to my problem so it's all bonus for me....it seems like you both strongly agree that the likely culprit is the Key Switch.....you may both be right on this one....at least the evidence certainly points in that direction....we had a dump of snow yesterday so I had the opportunity to use the tractor quite a bit for the clean-up....this required starting the tractor 5-6 times during the day.....it started every time without hesitation....I'm thinking that squirting the switch with the contact cleaner may have solved/alleviated the problem....or... I've been lured into a false sense of well-being until the problem rears it's ugly head again. So, I think it would be wise for me to take the Key Switch apart (I'm good at that), clean it thoroughly then put it back together (I'm not so good at that) while heeding your advice about flying springs etc..

The tractor lives inside now but it was outside for the first few years...2013 model with 760 hours. I certainly realize that living outside for that time was not so good for the electrical components and could have been the cause of this whole situation.

I had checked out the above wiring diagram in my shop manual and was perplexed by the blank space that you are referring to, although it does specify that there is a PTO Safety Relay...that little bugger has to be hiding somewhere!!....or is it possible that a relay is not required?..anyway, let's hope that is not the problem.

I will certainly report back with some sort of conclusion....thanks again....here's to you,gentlemen!!... roposetoast:....twister

 

[ritcheyvs]

Just unfounded speculation, but maybe they changed to a PTO relay with dual contacts and used the second set of contacts for the safety function vs a separate relay? I have noticed a more than a few errors in the Kioti manuals, so this wouldn't surprise me. With luck, you'll never need to know.

WRT the key switch, one owner speculated that a shot of WD-40 or fluid film or contact cleaner in the keyhole should be considered routine maintenance, like greasing the loader pins. I can'r argue with that.

 

[Fallon]

Just unfounded speculation, but maybe they changed to a PTO relay with dual contacts and used the second set of contacts for the safety function vs a separate relay? I have noticed a more than a few errors in the Kioti manuals, so this wouldn't surprise me. With luck, you'll never need to know.

WRT the key switch, one owner speculated that a shot of WD-40 or fluid film or contact cleaner in the keyhole should be considered routine maintenance, like greasing the loader pins. I can'r argue with that.

WD40 is a crap penetrating oil & protectant. Spray 1/4" in a cup & come back in a week or 2. It will have all evaporated & just left a yellow varnish on things. & that varnish doesn't lube or protect anything. I'm not sure I'd use graphite like a normal lock (graphite is electrically conductive), maybe a light weight dry silicon spray or something.