Right to repair - we WIN!!

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bmaverick

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HUGE NEWS

🤠
 
   #3  

workinonit

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It reality what does it mean? Do they have to make the diagnostic software available?
 
   #5  

bmaverick

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It reality what does it mean? Do they have to make the diagnostic software available?

We won, but the next up hill battle is the ability to FLOOD the FTC with complaints like no tomorrow, this way, per the report, they will then investigate to see IF there is a Hardship-Event.

Read the article. More questions now than ever before.
 
  
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sunandsand

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What I'm reading is they have to make parts available as well as diagnostic software and manuals. If they don't they are looking at violations of the Sherman Anti-Trust act (and worse).

Obviously, this is a developing story, but it threatens to be verrrry interesting ;-)

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 
   #7  

Thomas

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Hmmm...wait and see after the ink dries.
 

RickB

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What I'm reading is they have to make parts available as well as diagnostic software and manuals. If they don't they are looking at violations of the Sherman Anti-Trust act (and worse).

Obviously, this is a developing story, but it threatens to be verrrry interesting ;-)

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
"Available" can be a broad term.
 

Diggin It

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What I'm reading is they have to make parts available as well as diagnostic software and manuals.
I don't read that at all. I read GovSpeak like:

"While unlawful repair restrictions have generally not been an enforcement priority for the Commission for a number of years,4 the Commission has determined that it will devote more enforcement resources to combat these practices.5 Accordingly, the Commission will now prioritize investigations into unlawful repair restrictions"

Second, the Commission will scrutinize repair restrictions for violations of the antitrust laws. For example, certain repair restrictions may constitute tying arrangements or monopolistic practices—such as refusals to deal, exclusive dealing, or exclusionary design—that violate the Sherman Act.8 Violations of the Sherman Act also violate the prohibition on unfair methods of competition codified in Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act.

Third, the Commission will assess whether repair restrictions constitute unfair acts or practices, which are also prohibited by Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act. In addition, the Commission will analyze any material claims made to purchasers and users to ascertain whether there are any prohibited deceptive acts or practices, in violation of Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act.

Finally, the Commission will bring an interdisciplinary approach to this issue, using resources and expertise from throughout the agency ...




In other words, don't get your hopes up.
 

orezok

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While the FTC makes rules, they don’t make laws. Congress does that and those are the people whose pockets are lined by the “you really don’t own your tractor” people.

From FTC code

ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITY​

Following an investigation, the Commission may initiate an enforcement action using either an administrative or judicial process if it has “reason to believe” that the law is being or has been violated. The Commission enforces both consumer protection and antitrust laws. Violations of some laws may result in civil penalties, which are adjusted annually for inflation. Commission Rule 1.98, 16 C.F.R. Sec. 1.98.

If there is not a law, FTC can only bluster and threaten.
 
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sunandsand

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Here's how I see this working out . . .

Class action suit against Deere, Apple, GM or some other biggie, and the biggie loses. (Or if they don't lose outright, they have to make some serious concessions).

The lawyers for all the smaller players realize that if General Motors can't fight this and win, they need to change their game real soon now.

As an example, Rolex and Swatch Group (which owns probably 50 or more different "names" in the watch business) don't sell parts. You have to send it to THEM for service.

There are ways around this but it would be much simpler if someone could just order the parts from them and have a local watchmaker (a dying breed, by the way, "no parts" has something to do with that) do the work. Since the parts and service are captive, the prices tend to be really, really high and you have no alternatives - so you get to suck it up.

I have a Rado Ceramic watch (Swatch group) and they won't sell parts. In fact, they wouldn't even tell me the battery number, saying "We don't like other people working on our watches." First, it isn't their watch any more, it is mine now, and second, I can have any part I need sent to me from the UK, and from several sources. (And I have done so.)

There's not a huge amount of money involved here (I can always buy a different watch), but there are instances where a LOT of money is a stake.

Deere is likely going to be one of the first targets for a class action suit. The products are expensive, the owners are not willing to let themselves be pushed around, and Deere has deep pockets (a requirement for the success of any lawsuit). Apple will likely be next.

One of the things this ruling is going to eliminate is stuff like a popular brand of ear buds which use a specific Varta battery. Varta will not sell these batteries "outside", stating a contractual obligation to the earbud maker. Of course, if your battery goes dead and you send it in to the ONLY service center, well, you're gonna need a new one, this one is unrepairable - send money (and there's a disposal fee or a return fee for the old one as well).

This is just beginning, and there are enough people who want it for something to happen. At last.

Best Regards.

Mike/Florida
 

ranger danger

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You bought it but you don't own it. Take Samsung cell phones as an instance. They send out "updates" every 2-3 months. You have a window of time to allow the phone to update at your time frame. If you don't, the phone updates itself automatically wether you want it to or not. You don't own it. Sucks!!
 
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/pine

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More and more things are going to fall under the same laws that protect intellectual property...just like software...if you didn't write it...you don't own it...all anyone owns is a license to use it (software)...and are restricted to whatever limitations etc. the owner(s) wish to include in the user agreements...(that have to be agreed to before it can be used)...get used to it...
 

joecdeere

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Sure, one day the software will be available for you to purchase, wait to you see the price and copyrights they put on it to keep it out of your hands
 

Tinhack

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I received a few email ads offering diagnostic equipment for autos, trucks and tractors. I wish I would have kept them. I don't even recall who they were from. At the time, I thought they were just bogus junk mail offers. They were sent to my old business email.

Perhaps someone is ready to cash in on the equipment. May even be the tractor manufacturers.
 

Torvy

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Be careful what you wish for, this is likely going to skyrocket the prices for everything. If a manufacturer's plan was to keep the repairs business and that margin is gone, they have to recoup it somewhere. Not sure how this is really going to work. Typically when the federal government gets involved in a solution, it is just moving the problem from the private sector to the government. The government does not have long track record of successful departments.
 
  
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sunandsand

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Prices may or may not go up, and it will vary by industry.

Deere being forced to disclose will cut their profit margins, but they can't raise prices significantly because they have competition from other companies which make the same or very similar products. If a red/orange/black/purple tractor costs half of what a green one does because the green tractor maker raised the prices a lot to preserve their margin, they aren't going to sell many green tractors because we can buy a very similar product for half the price. They'll have to convince us the the green premium is worth that much difference.

The only way this works is with absolutely unique products - you buy OUR product or you do without. If there is enough demand, it will attract competitors and then the product isn't unique any more.

Software is another story. There is SO MUCH free and very good software out there that paying list price is just about inexcusable. Free is a very tough price to beat. Software gets expensive when it is (again) unique. Local college got a CNC machine donated, big impressive device only a few years old, but useless, there's no software to make it work.

I think what will change is the composition of the company's profit centers. They will realize (as you point out) that their captive service just went away, and will have to find ways to compensate.

The smart companies will boast about how repairable their devices are and how easy it is to get parts, so it is worth paying a little more for our (whatever) instead of buying a cheaper one from a competitor for which there are no parts or parts take forever to arrive.

Personally, I'm quite willing to pay a little more for something I can fix and keep instead of paying a little less for something I can only discard when it breaks.

The dumb companies will raise their prices and then find themselves losing market share to their competitors.

We're in for an interesting ride . . .

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

RickB

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There's no corporate competitive advantage regarding right to repair. I've said before, Deere is getting all the ink but every single tractor manufacturer will be affected in the same way because each and every one has approached the issue exactly the same.
 

crazyal

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What's going to happen is these companies will make more money. Instead of withholding the software needed to troubleshoot your equipment they are going to sell you access to an on-line version of the software for a limited amount of time. You'll plug your computer in and it'll spit out an answer. They'll even make sure the part is at your local dealer for you to buy.
 

Walker1

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What's going to happen is these companies will make more money. Instead of withholding the software needed to troubleshoot your equipment they are going to sell you access to an on-line version of the software for a limited amount of time. You'll plug your computer in and it'll spit out an answer. They'll even make sure the part is at your local dealer for you to buy.
Yep, and guess what, the parts are going to be expensive.
 

RickB

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The first thing the customer will have to do is buy the protocol adapter in order to connect a laptop to the machine.
Dealers currently pay several hundred dollars for each configuration. How many will you need?
 

oosik

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I'm not holding my breath on this one ............
 

ray66v

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It could still be years before regulations are written, and legal challenges are settled.

I would like to be able to buy Apple OEM parts. They only sell them, if you allow them do the work.
 
  
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sunandsand

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Never underestimate the power of the government (or sometimes, the stupidity of it).

Do you have an OBD II port in your car? Yep, and you can buy a reader for $20 on eBay, a rather good one costs a bit more, and there are readers in the several hundred dollar region for specific cars (MB, BMW, etc.) Even Harbor Freight sells them (but no more coupons, I guess Comrade Xi needs the money . . . )

OBD II was mandated by the Feds about 25 or 30 years ago (I had a 1990 Audi with OBD-I, it would blink out a few codes), OBD II works very nicely, and I have a brand-specific reader for my MB. It cost something like $399, but it has saved me many multiples of its price. Plug it in, it reads EVERYTHING and saves hours and hours of diagnostic time (the dealer gets $150/hr) plus running the car back and forth, alternate transportation and so on. In fact, I bought it used from someone who wrecked his car, I paid him a whopping $50 - and it saved me ten times that the first time I plugged it in.

So here I am in the middle of a field, my tractor stops and I don't know why. Has fuel, no nasty noises, nothing obviously busted, it just won't run. Plan A - load it onto a trailer, take it to the dealer, pay $$$$ for diagnostics, pay $$$$$$$ to have the parts installed, put it back on the trailer, take it back to the field and go back to work. Total time a couple of days and boo-coo dollars.

Plan B - plug in the $300 diagnostics box right there in the middle of the field, it tells me I need part number 34-3456B, which is a left handed widget frammis solenoid and my dealer has one in stock right now. Go get it (leaving the tractor where it is), bring it back, install it myself in eight minutes, back to work the same day.

I like Plan B, it is worth paying the $300 for the magic box because it gets me up and running FAR faster and for FAR less money and with FAR less hassle than Plan A.

Vehicles of all kinds nowadays are much more complex than in the old days. Part of it is they are more capable, and part of it is various regulations. Diagnostics can get very expensive with all these interrelated systems, which is why OBD II was mandated in the first place - there was no confidence that repairs would be done to satisfy emissions requirements given the complexity of the systems.

The only constant is change . . . if we are lucky, this will be for the better. Captive service and captive parts are definitely no bargain for us. The FTC is getting ready to break that barrier so we can fix our own stuff again.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

ruffdog

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Plan B - plug in the $300 diagnostics box right there in the middle of the field, it tells me I need part number 34-3456B, which is a left handed widget frammis solenoid and my dealer has one in stock right now. Go get it (leaving the tractor where it is), bring it back, install it myself in eight minutes, back to work the same day.

I like Plan B, it is worth paying the $300 for the magic box because it gets me up and running FAR faster and for FAR less money and with FAR less hassle than Plan A.
Yes, that would be a "magic box" if that is how it would work. Normally, a service code may tell you that you have low fuel pressure at the injectors and you have to still figure out if it is a plugged line/filter, water in the fuel, stop solenoid, or lift pump. Maybe the code tells you that there is still a safety interlock enabled and you have to figure out which switch it is or if you have a short. It seems like the dealers will be stocking lots of parts for people doing plan B.
 

crazyal

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As Ruff says it's not that simple. Plus when it comes to cars there's a lot of them out there. That means a massive market. Not the case with tractors so don't expect companies to line up with cheap versions of what the mfg sells. Even with cars there's generic codes that all use then their brand specific codes and codes in sub computers. The cheap code readers don't usually read everything.
 

Cougsfan

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Plan B - plug in the $300 diagnostics box right there in the middle of the field, it tells me I need part number 34-3456B, which is a left handed widget frammis solenoid and my dealer has one in stock right now. Go get it (leaving the tractor where it is), bring it back, install it myself in eight minutes, back to work the same day.
Mike/Florida
That sounds like a desirable outcome, and actually could be realistic, except maybe the 8 minutes parts replacement;)
 

ruffdog

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That sounds like a desirable outcome, and actually could be realistic, except maybe the 8 minutes parts replacement;)
It sounds plausible with simple machines but with large modern complex machines it would not be so easy.
 

CoyPatton

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Yes, that would be a "magic box" if that is how it would work. Normally, a service code may tell you that you have low fuel pressure at the injectors and you have to still figure out if it is a plugged line/filter, water in the fuel, stop solenoid, or lift pump. Maybe the code tells you that there is still a safety interlock enabled and you have to figure out which switch it is or if you have a short. It seems like the dealers will be stocking lots of parts for people doing plan B.

Yes. The equipment that provides the more detailed info even for OBD-II vehicles is not a few hundred dollars or less certainly not $20, but $1000’s. And often requires a heavy learning curve.
Yes there are $20 OBD-II readers available. They give you an OBD-II error code stored in the vehicle on board computer. Those sub entry level readers give you absolutely no info on where to go from there. If you are not a very experienced tech, you have hours of education in front of you and unless you already own semi specialized tools, will quickly be spending more of those $20 bills for more tools.
There are more involved readers for more $$$ and still you either need experience or education to filter through provided data.
Then the professional level diagnostic equipment will allow interaction with the on board computer to actually assess components. But again these are not going to be simple pick up and fix solutions.
Oh where it do dimple as to plug in a computer and adapter and get a part number spit out. Someone had bern watching too much sci fi with no reality filters in place.
 

/pine

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The analogy between software and mechanical parts that contain microprocessors etc... is viable to a point...

Take for example an end user product like Photoshop...it easy to find older versions that can be activated without Adobe knowing about it but it must not be allowed to "phone home" which it will try to do every time the program is started...

Like newer versions of proprietary software/hardware...machines will likely have to have access to either towers or satellites in order to function...
 
  
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sunandsand

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Here's my experience with the "magic box".

Car is a 2008 Mercedes CLK 350 convertible. Air conditioning isn't working. Owner (me) unhappy about this. Climate control on this car is seriously complicated, lots of options, temp individually adjustable on each side, blower also, vents also, this is kinda nuts. Standard Teutonic over-engineering.

Plug in magic box, set to correct vehicle (standard plug, software internally selectable for about 50 different models).

Hit "go". Box scrolls down and does about a hundred (!) different scans and checks, stops at "climate control".

"Enter for further information", OK, tell me.

"Module 1131 out of range, enter for further information"

Click.

"Humidity 0%, outside air temperature -40F"

In Florida. In the summer. Right. I doubt it.

A few minutes with Google yields the correct MB part number for module 1131 and where it lives (front of the firewall, next to the battery).

List price on the module is over $400. eBay has a guaranteed used one for - ready - $12 delivered! Buy it now. Four days later it is here, three screws and one plug and it is in, A/C now works flawlessly.

The dealer would have charged me an absolute minimum of $150 in diagnostics, plus the module, plus tax, and I'd have had to leave the car with them for a couple of days. If I had been able to get out of there for $750, I would have been happy. My net cost was $12, and I don't count the $50 cost for the box because I can use it again. (They would have washed the car as part of the $750, but man, that's an EXPENSIVE car wash!)


So I know it works.

Minimal learning curve, no special tools needed, quick repair, absurdly low cost - how the heck do you fix ANYTHING on a Mercedes for $12? But I did . . .



While it is entirely correct to say that some repairs are going to cost a lot more and take a bunch of special tools and training, there are also a lot of simple (and some not-so-simple) things that can be done by owners, who can save a LOT of time and money doing it.

What the "magic box" does is talk to the ECU in the vehicle and read stored trouble codes. We can't look at a sensor or a control box or a catalytic converter and tell if it is good or bad, but the computer knows and the box will tell us. OBD II and its various relatives save a huge amount of diagnostic time and keeps mechanics from just throwing (your/our) money at some obscure problem until it is solved.

Lets extend the function of the box to check dealer stock on the part - that isn't much of a leap from what we have now. You've already told the box what model you have, so there's no reason there can't be an electronic parts lookup function. Your phone has a GPS in it, so it can use the Google "Vendors near me" function to find the nearest dealer or dealers.

As to needing connectivity, it could ride on your cell phone connection, so no computer or separate satellite equipment needed.


Older and simpler machines don't (usually) have ECUs, but if your (whatever) does, you'll be very thankful for the code readers.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

IndyJay

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Yes, that would be a "magic box" if that is how it would work. Normally, a service code may tell you that you have low fuel pressure at the injectors and you have to still figure out if it is a plugged line/filter, water in the fuel, stop solenoid, or lift pump. Maybe the code tells you that there is still a safety interlock enabled and you have to figure out which switch it is or if you have a short. It seems like the dealers will be stocking lots of parts for people doing plan B.
Looking at two different wiring schematics:
1) Old school tractor where all of the safety switches are wired in series, eventually going to ground; yes you do have to trace each and every one of the switches until you find the one that is causing the issue.
2) New system with ECU, for example my Kioti DK4510, wiring diagram shows that each individual safety switch and all other sensors go back to the ECU on their own data point.

Are you saying that the code reader is not going to be able to pinpoint which one is holding out the 'run-ok' status? Do you know this for sure or are you assuming that the troubleshooting process is the same for finding the cause of a safety lockout in these two hypothetical systems?

I am betting that the code will tell you which switch/sensor is holding up the show. Granted, you do still have to figure out why, but having the code reader allows you to go directly to the device and jiggle, clean, whatever and see if it clears the condition right there on the spot. That is what this whole thread is about. Giving us the ability to perform basic troubleshooting on our own, perhaps reconnecting a loose connection and going on without the expense and inconvenience of taking it to the dealer.
 

k0ua

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Mr truck started to run like a 3 legged horse. In other words, not very well. Slobbering at idle and the power seemed down. I didn't have a scanner but a friend came over with one. Two minutes later he told me spark plug was not working. I went to investigate and the plug wire was not plugged in correctly. It came off too easy with just the friction of the plug wire cover. Fixed that and truck runs great again. What would that have cost at the dealership? I dunno, but I bet it would have been a lot more than the "free" that it cost me.
 

RickB

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"Plug in magic box, set to correct vehicle (standard plug, software internally selectable for about 50 different models)."

Flaw #1 with extrapolating that automotive solution to off-road; As of this date and for some indeterminate time going forward there is no "standard plug" much less any standardization of software.
 
  
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sunandsand

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"no standard plug or standardization of software"

At the present, this appears to be correct. Even if it is never standardized, if I buy a $25,000 tractor, another grand for a proprietary diagnostics box is worth it, it pays for itself the first time I don't have to call for service or drag the tractor back to the dealer on a borrowed trailer.

Diesel trucks have OBD II ports, why can't a diesel tractor? Programming in the ECU can communicate with all kinds of things on the vehicle. Deere's software is proprietary, I understand there are "cracked" versions of of it "out there".


Question for IndyJay - does your Kioti have a diagnostics port on it, and if so, does it look like an automotive OBD II socket? There's really no reason (other than to keep customers out) for using a proprietary connector when the manufacturers can buy standard connectors right off the shelf for pennies.

In fact, that's one of the things the FTC is going to be looking at - what tricks are the vendors using to keep people from fixing their own stuff? Trick fasteners? Glue? Captive software? All about to become no-nos.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

RickB

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It has more than the appearance of being correct, it is correct. There will be more than a quarter century worth of computerized machinery with non standard hardware and software that doesn’t fit the neat box of the OBDII regulatory framework. Consumer level solutions for right to repair for these machines will be cumbersome and expensive.
 

IndyJay

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Question for IndyJay - does your Kioti have a diagnostics port on it, and if so, does it look like an automotive OBD II socket?
Mike, my DK4510 has what appears to be a standard ODB II socket right above the parking brake lever. I have read posts stating that standard readers cannot communicate with the proprietary interface using available software. My own guess is perhaps Kioti changed the pinouts just enough to prevent compatibility but not cause damage if a non-compatible device is connected. It may also be that the pinout is standard but just requires the proprietary software. Would love to hear from someone who has managed to get into one.
 

mo1

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JD 5075E
My $0.87 (used to be $0.02, but adjusted for inflation) is that this ends up going nowhere or nearly so. One, the tools and software are reported to be very expensive even to dealers, so even if you as a third party were allowed buy a $10,000/year subscription to a diagnostic program or pay $10,000 for a piece of diagnostic equipment, the price is so high that few can/would do so. Secondly, one of the big things the OEMs are trying to keep people from getting into is ECUs. They don't like people who buy the least powerful tractor in a model line to go turn up the fueling rate and boost on a tractor to make it essentially identical to the most powerful tractor in that line without paying the OEM more. However, the EPA really doesn't like it when people go into the ECU and tell it to ignore the fact that they've removed the DPF, EGR, and SCR and run normally instead of throwing reams of error codes and derating to 2 HP. I guarantee you somebody will do an emissions delete using the now-available diagnostic/technical software/equipment, and the OEMs will run to the FTC saying, "See! This is why we prevented them from doing this before!" and they'll be allowed to either encrypt their ECUs and/or prohibit access to diagnostic tools/software.

I can basically see this allowing the big time operators with equipment costing several hundred thousand dollars in "unlocking" some of the electronic monitoring features on their equipment that they would have normally had to pay more to enable. What the OEMs will thus do is just unlock this on all new units and raise the price the amount that the activation used to cost, essentially making everybody pay for these features regardless if they wanted them or not.

About the only good outcome from this is it may make some independent repair shops be able to work on newer equipment, but again, the large number of pieces of equipment and software they would need to service various pieces of equipment and the enormous amount it will all cost will severely blunt the benefit from the access.
 
  
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sunandsand

Silver Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
167
Tractor
Kubota B2601
I just Googled "OBD II pinouts" and found that while the socket is the same and most of the pins are in the same places (but not always), there appear to be three different protocols for the data. Inexpensive scanners (Harbor Freight $20 specials) likely don't have what you need. Some of the more expensive ones do.


"You may also tell which protocol is used on a specific automobile by examining the connector socket carefully. If the dash connector has a pin in the #7 position and no pin at #2 or #10, then the car has the ISO 9141 protocol. If no pin is present in the #7 position, the car uses an SAE protocol. If there are pins in positions #7 and #2 and/or #10, the car may use the ISO protocol."

As to Kioti specific codes, I have no idea, but Google is probably your friend ;-)

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 
  
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sunandsand

Silver Member
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Messages
167
Tractor
Kubota B2601
You can't reprogram the ECU using a scan tool. All the tool does is read fault codes and clears them (which is all we really need).

Reprogramming an ECU involves changing code. About 1990, this was being done by reading the code off the original equipment's EPROM (Electronically Programmable Read-Only Memory chip), saving it to a disc, modifying it, then writing it to another EPROM, which was then installed into the ECU. This was practical when the EPROMS were socketed and only had 32 or so pins. I still have the reader/writer, it runs on Windows 3.1.

You could also get an EEPROM, which was an erasable EPROM. It had a quartz window which you shined a UV light onto for a minute or so to erase it, then you could reprogram it again.

This mostly isn't possible any more. EPROMS now have many, many pins and are usually surface mount parts (no pins through the PC board or sockets), which means they are difficult to remove and replace without wrecking the PC board.

It is possible to buy hot-rod chips anyway, but they are expensive and advertised as for off-road use only (which is usually ignored). You send off your ECU and a bunch of money, and (if the company doesn't go out of business) eventually you get a modified ECU back. The power increases are often marginal and driveability suffers, as do emissions. All in all, it is a pretty bad idea, the engineers at the factory know what they are doing.


Incidentally, the reason I keep this antique device is that it also has a "what are you?" function. You put a chip into the socket, press the button, and it reports back "I'm a 74LS00" or similar. This saved me quite a few hundred dollars on an aircraft radio which decided to talk but not listen. Turns out there were four identical socketed chips on one board and they had "house numbers" so there was no way to tell what they were, as in "send it to us for service along with all your credit cards".

Chip #1 was a 74LS00, chip #2 was a 74LS00, chip #3, same number printed on it, was dead . . .

I pulled a 74LS00 out of my junk box and the radio was fixed. The chip costs a dime, new. The manufacturer wanted $250 to "look it over".

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

k0ua

Epic Contributor
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
30,835
Location
Branson, Mo.
Tractor
Kioti DK35se Hydrostat
This mostly isn't possible any more. EPROMS now have many, many pins and are usually surface mount parts (no pins through the PC board or sockets), which means they are difficult to remove and replace without wrecking the PC board.

Well actually..... SMD chips are fairly easy to remove and replace. I have successfully removed and replaced a 100 legged CPU chip on a radio that the entire chip was about the size of a thumbnail. It is much easier than thru hole chips to replace. You need some proper tools and you need the proper techniques, and you need some practice. But the overall bottom line, is that it is easier to replace multileg SMD devices than thru hole devices.
 
  
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sunandsand

Silver Member
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Messages
167
Tractor
Kubota B2601
Sigh, progress has passed me by . . . I've always had much better luck with thru-hole components. Fine point iron, patience and a solder sucker. If you would, please PM me with some tips on SMD stuff, I'd like to learn that. (Trying to avoid thread drift.)

KK4ITE here ;-)

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

k0ua

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Branson, Mo.
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Kioti DK35se Hydrostat
And if you don't have the proper air solder rework station, you can get by (as I do) with a package of chipquick and a tube of good liquid rosin and a chisel point soldering iron. Yes believe it or not a chisel point that is many times the size of the legs. As you do not solder the legs individually, you use lots of rosin on the board before you lay the new chip, and you "flow" solder the legs on each side. Then carefully inspect with a good magnifying visor and re-rosin and reflow if necessary.

Lots of rosin is the key. As for the removal of the big multilegged chip, the key there is the use of the chipquick metal. This special metal has a much lower freezing point than regular 60-40 solder. So as you run the iron across a side of the chips legs you add chipquick which amalgamates with the regular solder, and lowers the freezing point so that you have much much more time to remove the chip.

Do all sides of the chip, Then you have plenty of time to heat the sides (legs) and take your tweezers and pluck the chip off of the board while the metal is still molten. Then suck up the metal until the board is clean, Then add lots of liquid rosin, and lay out the new chip. Carefully inspecting for leg alignment. Start by tacking down one leg diagonally across the chip on each side (2 sided or 4 sided). Once you are satisfied that the alignment is good, the flow solder all of the rest of the legs with your chisel point iron. Inspect for any shorts and reflow if necessary.

If this old man can do it, anyone can do it. All it takes is a little practice.
 

k0ua

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Branson, Mo.
Tractor
Kioti DK35se Hydrostat
There are many good videos on You-tube showing the"" cheap and dirty " Chip quick method (you can get a kit at Amazon). That is how I learned how to do it. Of course the Pro's actually have an SMD rework station, but they cost more.
 

IndyJay

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
819
Location
S.E. Indiana
Tractor
Kioti DK4510MS w/Loader, Grapple Prev: Massey 1250
My $0.87 (used to be $0.02, but adjusted for inflation) is that this ends up going nowhere or nearly so. One, the tools and software are reported to be very expensive even to dealers, so even if you as a third party were allowed buy a $10,000/year subscription to a diagnostic program or pay $10,000 for a piece of diagnostic equipment, the price is so high that few can/would do so. Secondly, one of the big things the OEMs are trying to keep people from getting into is ECUs. They don't like people who buy the least powerful tractor in a model line to go turn up the fueling rate and boost on a tractor to make it essentially identical to the most powerful tractor in that line without paying the OEM more. However, the EPA really doesn't like it when people go into the ECU and tell it to ignore the fact that they've removed the DPF, EGR, and SCR and run normally instead of throwing reams of error codes and derating to 2 HP. I guarantee you somebody will do an emissions delete using the now-available diagnostic/technical software/equipment, and the OEMs will run to the FTC saying, "See! This is why we prevented them from doing this before!" and they'll be allowed to either encrypt their ECUs and/or prohibit access to diagnostic tools/software.

I can basically see this allowing the big time operators with equipment costing several hundred thousand dollars in "unlocking" some of the electronic monitoring features on their equipment that they would have normally had to pay more to enable. What the OEMs will thus do is just unlock this on all new units and raise the price the amount that the activation used to cost, essentially making everybody pay for these features regardless if they wanted them or not.

About the only good outcome from this is it may make some independent repair shops be able to work on newer equipment, but again, the large number of pieces of equipment and software they would need to service various pieces of equipment and the enormous amount it will all cost will severely blunt the benefit from the access.
I believe that this is the premise of the "Right to Repair" movement. There is no valid reason for the software to be that expensive other than to prevent competition in servicing the tractors or to gouge the consumer for minor repairs that they could easily do themselves. Both are unethical and skirt on being illegal. They could open up the diagnostics portion of the code but block users from tampering with the emissions related settings. Not saying I agree with this, just stating that it would be possible. I had heard that there is someone in CZ that can make your 45 HP Kioti a 55 HP using standard settings (the 45, 50 and 55 engines are identical, it is all software), all the way up to 75 HP. I personally would not feel comfortable sending my ECU to some Czech hacker, even after I am out of warranty. But if I had a buddy that has a DK5510 and a way to download the bits into my DK4510? But that would be dishonest, right? That would be the justification they would use to keep it locked down.
 

Fixastuff

Gold Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2021
Messages
451
Tractor
Massey
Some people will complain about anything! Just because you find self diagnostics impossible to do does not make that the case for everyone. Dang, it's like y'all would rather not even have the option of fixing it yourself.
 
 
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