Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!!

   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!! #121  

dirttoys

Platinum Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
659
Location
Ozarks
Tractor
ac 170 bobcat 773 tak 235
the manager of our molding room proved it every single day all day long. Thing is, water is a phase change material.
Put a pot of water on a stove and turn the burner on high with a thermocouple in the water and run a timer.aproaches
You will see that the thermal energy that the water seems to accept (reflected in temperature change) is not constant across time. And you will notice it especially for the last some degrees before the water boils. It takes a very long time to cross that last threshold.
LOL, I have ran plenty of cars, tractors, and boats without thermostats. They struggle to reach op temp, especially in cold weather, that is it.

Water/coolant indeed are capable of state change, they can go from liquid to sold (ice), or liquid to gas (steam). If your cooling system approaches either of those state changes it has catastrophically failed.

I apologize to OP again, this is a tangent unlikely to yield a solution, I should not have brought it up.

Best,

ed
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!! #122  

Jerry/MT

Elite Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
2,966
Location
North Idaho-The Palouse
Tractor
New Holland TD95D, Ford 4610 & Kubota M4500
the manager of our molding room proved it every single day all day long. Thing is, water is a phase change material.
Put a pot of water on a stove and turn the burner on high with a thermocouple in the water and run a timer.
You will see that the thermal energy that the water seems to accept (reflected in temperature change) is not constant across time. And you will notice it especially for the last some degrees before the water boils. It takes a very long time to cross that last threshold.

You will see that the thermal energy that the water seems to accept (reflected in temperature change) is not constant across time.

That's because the heat transfer rate is proportional to (Th -Tc) where Th is the heat source temperature and Tc is the water temperature. That differential temperature decreases as the water heats up, assuming a constant heat source temperature.

It takes a very long time to cross that last threshold.
That's because you have to bring the water to the boiling temperature and then add the "heat of vaporization" to get it to change phase.

Elementary thermodynamics.
 
Last edited:
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!! #123  

Jerry/MT

Elite Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
2,966
Location
North Idaho-The Palouse
Tractor
New Holland TD95D, Ford 4610 & Kubota M4500
That's my thought too....it still sounds fuelish to me. Of course if it is temperature then good that egg on face washes right off.

You know, just as an experiment it would be easy to take a piece of cardboard and block off half or more of the front of the radiator. Then be vigilant and see if it begins to slow down in half the time.

rScotty
There is always a risk of" egg on the face" when you are attempting to solve a problem from 2000 miles away with data that maybe questionable. The idea of these forums is to help the person who has asked for help. It's not to boost egos. I know you know that.
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!! #124  

LouNY

Super Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
8,236
Location
Greenwich, NY
Tractor
Branson 8050, IH 574, Oliver 1550 Diesel Utility (traded in on Branson)
The reason it slows down near boiling is that some is going through the phase change to water vapor before it comes to the boiling point.
And yes steam can be heated well above the boiling point of water, super heated steam is what goes through steam turbines.
They have to have dry steam, water droplets will kill a steam turbine.
And water can be heated will above the normal boiling point simply by keeping pressure on it, very hot water under pressure is often called super therm water.
Many jurisdictions that have extreme boiler regulations are gotten around by have a flash tank, which is fed super therm, which flashes to wet steam in the lower pressure flash tank. If you just need low to mid pressure saturated steam it works quite well.
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!!
  • Thread Starter
#125  
OP
Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
178
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
Sorry, and sure would like to help, I have boats, so I know how "fun" weird problems could be.

Since the problem seems to happen roughly at the time the engine reaches operating temperature, I would suggest pulling the thermostat out, replacing the housing, and running without it.

In no way do I believe this will "fix" ya, but, if the problem is related to the cooling system, I would expect it to change the run time so we have more information.

An engine under no load, with a properly functioning radiator, is unlikely to come up to operating temperature without a thermostat (or t-stat), so it might idle/high idle for hours. If in the unlikely event it is a head gasket/cracked head or block, I would assume the problem would happen much sooner.

Best,

ed

Well I like the diagnostic advice re cracked block! That could run thousands to fix. Thanks to my NH dealer (Chambers in Montgomery, NY) the wrong fuel lines were sent so there’s another week delay.

I will see what I can do re the temp sensor. I’m actually running out of the new 5gal I put in the tank after draining it! Amazing…
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!!
  • Thread Starter
#126  
OP
Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
178
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
Thanks for the caution. While I have never experienced overheating due to the rush of coolant flying through the system too fast to pickup heat in the block and release it in the radiator (I think it is fiction caused by people that had genuine cooling issues, removed the thermostat and still had overheat issues), I am not proposing she runs the damn thing for several hours unattended. Simply a diagnostic test to determine if the machine runs for a longer or shorter duration without the thermostat.

I would agree when the op makes any change to the cooling system, she should monitor the temperature.

Best,

ed

Yep, I get it. Don’t want it to overheat and warp block or worse (assuming there is something worse)…
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!!
  • Thread Starter
#127  
OP
Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
178
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
I was swinging at a diagnostic test. I will confess I don't have an advanced degree in thermodynamics.

Of no use to the OP and just for fun:

In a closed system, moving heat from point a (the block) to point b (the atmosphere).

Fluid that spends more time at point a will take on more heat load, up to the point it changes state (boils and turns to steam), at that point the coolant can take no more heat, and will fail at moving heat from a to b.

Fluid that spends more time exposed to point b will dump more heat. Right down to the point where it reaches ~ambient temperature, at that point it will release no more heat.

Both of the above statements are true, as is the following.........

Fluid flowing more rapidly from point a to point b will pick up less heat per given volume of fluid that if it was flowing at a slower rate. However, the fluid per time unit will move an equal amount of heat from point a to point b, it will just have a lower temperature differential than fluid with a restriction (thermostat).

Sincerely, anecdotal oddities aside, the reason you shouldn't run your ice without a thermostat for a long period of time; the engine will not consistently reach operating temperature, and will not perform at optimal power/fuel efficiency.

Now, this is a hoot, and shit, maybe I am wrong, but I was trying to get closer to a diagnosis for the OP, not telling her to run the tractor without a thermostat for hours unattended.

I don't think I am making a frustrating problem any easier to find. So for heaven sake, don't even consider staring your engine without a thermostat, for even a minute. The heat of the flames will exceed the early hydrogen bombs, children and baby seals will die, we must think of the children (and the seals) :)

Sorry for the side track op, it was with good intentions, please do let us know what you find.

Best,

ed

Omg, not baby seals. No, seriously as a mathematician that makes a lot of sense.
D
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!!
  • Thread Starter
#128  
OP
Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
178
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
LOL, I have ran plenty of cars, tractors, and boats without thermostats. They struggle to reach op temp, especially in cold weather, that is it.

Water/coolant indeed are capable of state change, they can go from liquid to sold (ice), or liquid to gas (steam). If your cooling system approaches either of those state changes it has catastrophically failed.

I apologize to OP again, this is a tangent unlikely to yield a solution, I should not have brought it up.

Best,

ed

True tangential but of potential anecdotal use some day!
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!!
  • Thread Starter
#129  
OP
Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
178
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
There is always a risk of" egg on the face" when you are attempting to solve a problem from 2000 miles away with data that maybe questionable. The idea of these forums is to help the person who has asked for help. It's not to boost egos. I know you know that.

OP realizes it is an interesting tangent and is sufficiently afraid of overheating and it’s repurcutions to avoid anything drastic. That said, I’m no diesel mechanic, and am taking a very risk averse approach.

That my CNH dealer sent me the wrong hoses after we talked it thru twice confirming exactly what I wanted while looking at the same diagram is just SO frustrating!

I’m missing one of the low pressure return lines that goes either from the pump (?) or sediment bowl. NAPA said on the phone they had no such fuel line and I think I may have been talking to a moron so am taking the old one (replacement for which was not sent) there to see if in fact they have this low pressure fuel line in stock for sale by the foot. CNH charged like $20 for a simple rubber tube with no clips (“that’s extra”)
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE!! #130  

Jerry/MT

Elite Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
2,966
Location
North Idaho-The Palouse
Tractor
New Holland TD95D, Ford 4610 & Kubota M4500
Yep, I get it. Don’t want it to overheat and warp block or worse (assuming there is something worse)…
You can't even run long enough to get the temperature up so why worry about over temping at this point? Did you have an overheating problem before you had this issue? If you didn't, then I would focus on getting your machine running longer than 20 minutes.
 
 
Top