saga of neat neighbor & survey

[dmccarty]

Patrickg,

You have my total understanding and sympathy dealing with this "family."

But some of the picture responses have been very funny! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The pictures and comments are the only thing funny about the situation....

A couple of thoughts/comments. I wonder how the technology improvements in surveying will change property boundries and the law dealing with same? Since GPS is so accurate, lines in the past could be interesting to say the least, I have seen deed descriptions based on rocks in the middle of roads that no longer exist, how does a court deal with a property line that can be proven to be 5 feet from where it was commonly believed to have existed? If I buy the property and get it surveyed in a reasonable length of time and then find out that the line is 5 feet from where I thought it should be. Or in other words the other property owner looses 5 feet they have controled for years. Who wins? You, since just got the survey and purchased the property or the guy who has been controlling under an inaccurate survey? What a question and I don't there is a good answer.... I'll try to remember to ask the surveyor when I get them to reshoot some lot/property lines....

I'm disappointed in your local law enforcement. I think I would call up the DA and see what he says about all of this. The trespassers are violating the law and should be dealt with if the landowner wishes. North Carolina is one of the few states that allows a citizen to go to the magistrate and swear out a warrent for arrest of misdemeanor crimes. So if you know the person you can get a warrent for their arrest. You might want to call up the local court house and see if you can do the same. If you can do this and the people who are trespassing won't give you their name/address get the deputy to get it for you. If the deputy refuses I would call the Sheriff.

If I have a deputy that refuses to make an arrest for trespassing I'll be calling the deputy's superior and asking what is going on. If he gives me the line that you got I'm talking the Sheriff and DA at a minimum. Its just not acceptable. Correctly or not I would be worried about the liability of having a pond and trespassers. I personally would want to be able to show in court that I have legaly posted the property and had trespasser arrested to CYA. Sad statement that one has to be worried about these sort of things..... /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Good luck with these people. I know I get bent out of shape with the trespassers I have had but they are nothing compared to you troubles.........

Good Luck...
Dan McCarty

 

[patrickg]

Thanks, Dan. Luckily the 5+ ft in question is the same on both sides, i.e. both N-S boundaries are off by the same amount in the same direction so there is no net gain or loss to either party in land area. I just wanted a "GOOD" survey before building fences while in a contentious situation with someone I don't trust. I was sorely dissapointed to find that the original pins were set without proper attention to detail (not all sections are a mile by a mile). Now I have to try to negotiate an arrangement where the wording of both our deeds can be changed to reflect the reality of the boundaries as they have been for years but were described differently. If you follow the directions on the deeds you get what my surveyor got. No one wants this result. Sooooooo we need to change the description in the deed so a competent surveyor would find and agree with the old pins. This could all be so easy if only...

I'm concerned that if I put up a fence (as per either survey) my neighbor who doesn't want me to fence him in will cause trouble. I hope to convince him that THERE WILL BE A FENCE, SOON, VERY SOON. He can participate and it will be a pipe fence like on the other side of his property O R he can procrastinate and it will be barbed wire.

Patrick

 

[scruffy]

Dan, I suspect there will be alot of conflaguration for years to come over the GPS survey accuracy. Brings to mind a job in the San Juaquin Valley in California. We were surveying for the lateral canal systems from the San Luis Dam project. The original (and last) survey was done by the Army Corps of Engineers in (around) 1903. They used wagon wheels with graduated markings for measuring distance, and in several places, the elevation was off by anywhere from 10 feet to 30 feet. What do you do when a section corner marker is listed as 20 feet north of east/west power line, and there is no power line in sight? Took us almost 3 months to locate 19 of something like a 100 corner markers, and we had to shoot the rest in (ones needed) to complete the project. By the way, most of the corner marker stakes were redwood, that had long since rotted away.
I'm sure that the type of difference between 1903 and 1964/65 would amount to similar differences in todays technology.

 

[Bird]

Scruffy, I sometimes wonder about the accuracy of any of the surveys; just guess and hope the modern ways actually are more accurate. When I bought my place, I was talking to a local banker about the advisability of hiring a surveyor and he told me that on the last land transaction that he'd been involved in, they hired 3 different surveyors, got 3 different opinions, and finally just settled on what the adjoining property owners thought was right./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

 

[scruffy]

Bird, tain't the first time I've heard that particular lament. Many surveyors do not take the time to back shoot their line in from the nearest Bench Mark, which may be 2 or 3 miles away. Any line run a meaningful distance is subject to error, either in elevation or distance when the chain and rod work is done in a hurry. Failing to keep a transet level, and checking that level when shooting a 90 degree elbow can cause quite a bit of error.
It does not surprise me to hear about three differant surveys with three different results. A good reputable firm will back shoot their way back to the nearest BM and check themselves ALL the way out against their ingress...allowing the smallest of deviation absolutely possible.
Sure glad I gave that stuff up!

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Patrick,

Just got a chance to read this very long thread. First, I'm glad you got a survey from a REAL surveyor, and didn't rely on the other guy's "friend", who probably just dug up a pin and measured from there.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that all of the property lines are off 5' from the original survey pins, so that when your surveyor finished, your property lines had moved 5' to the West (or east, it doesn't matter). Simply put, you own 5' more in one direction and 5' less in the other.

To answer your question, I am making one large assumption. All of the deeds for you and your surrounding neighbors match. ie, when drawn on paper, the lines as described do not overlap, and this is simply a matter of the pegs being placed in the wrong locations. (A lot more common than you might think).

Your question now, is what to do. Your soft heart tells you that the troublesome fellow with the small lot and the large arsenal probably won't be too happy with you if you fence him in and he loses 5' of the side yard he thought he had. The guy on the other side also might want the fence removed if it is now 5' over on his property.

The first solution is simple. Continue to fence to the original (old) pins and ignore the new survey. Explain to Mr Clean that the survey shows the line as 5' nearer to his house than previously thought, but you don't want to inconvenience him by running your cattle that close to this house. Perhaps, you could put up a nice decorative fence behind the pipe fence so he won't have to see the nasty old thing.

Your second option is to fence to the new pins. You lose 5' on one side, which will make that neighbor ecstatic. (Hot dog, something for FREE). Then, string christmas lights on the fence on Mr. Clean's side.

As far as straightening out the deeds, I don't understand the problem. The deeds are correct, the pins are incorrect. The side you have lost land on, will most likely NOT want to give you the land you thought was yours. Remember, this will have a domino effect, moving all N/S lines over 5', so, I'm afraid you have probably lost that. For Mr. Clean, if you really want him to have that extra 5', you would need a surveyor to write a description covering ONLY the 5' strip (5'x350'?) then a simple Quit Claim deed should transfer the interest. It would be up to Mr. Clean to then add the new strip to his old deed. You can't really mess with his deed without a court order.

I don't know if I'm understanding your situation right, but these seem to be the available solutions.

Remember, when this country was laid out, surveyors measured in Rods, Chains and Links. These were not just word describing sizes, but actual measuring instruments. If my memory serves me correctly, the surveyors started at a known point, and laid out a series of monuments, as they moved across the country. These monuments served as starting points for all the other surveys. Frankly, the fact that these guys could start on the East coast and measure clear to Oklahoma using a metal chain and a long rod (and probably a little celestial location) and still be off only 5'. Amazing. I have also seen surveyors who make mathematical errors. We had one guy here who did that. Made the same error every darn time. Whole subdivisions are off you 3'. At least he was consistent /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif.

Fishing in your ponds? Can you post some signs near the ponds warning the public about some exotic parasite that dwells within? Do NOT use toxic pollution. You may want to sell someday, and you don't want word of that lingering in town. A parasite, however, that could mysteriouly appear for a couple of seasons, before you, after a heroic effort, manage to control and eradicate the little critters...

There's a guy near here that has had the same trespassing problem. His solution was to put up a 4'x8' sign that says "Grandma Don't live here Anymore! Keep Out!"

Hope this helps.

SHF

 

[patrickg]

Re survey error/accuracy with GPS. Before I sold my prev house (old residential neighborhood) a woman in a small P/U truck parked in the middle of the street and set up a tripod with a GPS and a plumb bob centered on a pin in the pavement. Clearly it was some sort of survey. I asked what was up and found that there was going to be aerial photogrametry film shot of the area prior to ripping up the center of the streets for pipe work. She was a civil engineer of the city and was going to precisely locate various marks in the streets so they could be referenced to the photos.

I asked her what sort of accuracy and repeatability she got with her GPS setup. (There was a lot of technobabble about differential mode, other "helper mode transmitters" and stuff like that which is out of my experience) Absolute accuracy was seriously sub-centimeter with reliable repeatability within a couple mm. I was impressed. As a favor to me she switched coordinate systems and got a readout in Lat and Long in degrees, min, and tenths (hundredths in her case). I offered to calibrate her equipment for her with my mid-priced hand held GPS units but she declined (must be a woman working in a MAN'S job kinda thing). Seriously I was trying to get a handy ref point to check my hand held units. I did, they work within published specs with the newer one being darned close.

Ever since the selective availability (read, make it so error prone the bad guys couldn't use it to target a small site) was turned off GPS has been real good even in 3D (lat, long, altitude).

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

SHF, It is even simpler. I surround this guy on three sides, the fourth being the highway. The old pins describe a correctly sized rectangle in a place we both like. The rub is that following the deeds directions accurately places the whole rectangle in a different place not intended when the 150x350 lot was carved out of the 1/4 section in the previous owners divorce settlement, prior to my purchase by several years.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

SHF, I spoke with the chief of police in the nearest town while we were both getting a glass of ice tea today. I asked him if he would like to make a little money on the side helping me put in some barbed wire. He jokingly asked if I provided gloves, food, etc. I said all that and beer when we are done plus a great fringe benefit. These guys don't like each other and the chief's primary jurisdiction stops short of our properties but I gave the chief permission to fish my ponds on his time off. He promised me armed response if my ADT alarm goes off or I call for help. He always has his weapon on or off duty in uniform or out and always when fishing the ponds in sight of my neighbor. I'll be offering the same deal to a local deputy to get his response.

My neighbor is none too stable and has stated flatly that I will N O T put a barbed wire fence beside his house. I didn't mention it before but this guy handcuffed his wife and put a gun to her head, beat the c--p out of her, shot the tires out of her BMW etc on one of his rampages (there were others but less spectacular). Typical sick battered woman syndrome, she will never press charges since he is her meal ticket and he will change. A few weeks at Alanon rather than jail because his cop buddies from the BIG CITY, not around here, intervened on his behalf and several months of multi-nights per week in AA meetings and he is still at large. His arsenal was confiscated after that last rampage but his lawyer got it back for him. Enough assault rifles, large bore and magnum pistols, sniper rifles etc. to arm a small nation. I saw his gun safe delivered. Small banks around here don't have safes that big.

All I want is a fence in a legally defensible position with him on the OTHER SIDE OF IT. I am soliciting suggestions on rapidly growing vegetation to make a natural screen. Perhaps something that is real quick but not ideal and something real good but not quick used in combination. Whatever will work with least human intervention after planting. Hopefully something that will not require great amounts of water and is suitable for south central OK where tems can approach zero some years and get over 100 in summer. I was hoping for something attactive as well but could fall back on Poison Ivy and long thorned Locust trees and or Mesquite. Suggestions anyone?

Patrick

 

[jimmoore]

PatrickG, during my 20 years on the police force, I have known and had to deal with many of those "billy joe bad-ass" type individuals such as your neighbor. As I think back the most of them have died violent deaths, by gunshot, drowning,or drunken car wrecks. Pay back is hell! And what goes around, comes around, I always say.

jim