?steel framing references?

[PacersDad]

I am looking for references, such as blocklayer.com, that are intended for steel framing more than dimensional lumber.
i'd like to be able to plan roof trusses or floor joist layouts with calculators that show loads and spans.
Does that exist online anywhere?

 

[GLyford]

What are you talking about as far as steel structures, there are many kinds. And for that reason alone, I think you're going to be shooting in the dark here. Just too many options.

Do you mean built with A36 I beam, square structural, and c-channel? Do you mean built up welded beams and bar joists? Do you mean Square tube and C-purlin/Z-purlin, and welded trusses? Do you mean bolt together kits? Do you mean light steel framing with sheet metal studs and joists? Hybrid steel and wood? Structural steel frames with light steel curtain walls? Structural pallet racking? Steel arch space frames like Space Bldgs : Steel Building, Metal Building, Design, Fabrication, Construction : Home ?

For the vast majority of these, as I understand it, they are engineered from the ground up to make the best use of the material. Since steel is more expensive than wood, in order to save money on a metal structure most commercial buildings engineer from the ground up to make the best use of metal just where it is needed each time.

Light steel is starting to have span tables and such, but even then they are very sparse on the ground.

There are calculators out there for individual beams, but you need to know a fair amount of building design to get the loadings to plug into them.

In the southwest where C/Z purlins are more common, I think there may be standard structures and spans that everyone uses, but since we have to deal with snow and wind loading in the northeast we don't see them...I suspect because by the time you have accounted for the heavier loading they are no longer economically viable.

The big reason that span tables and simplified designs for wood exist is that the material is cheap enough that you can simply overspec some of it for cheap money and still be ahead on your total costs. Because of the cost of metal, that doesn't seem to happen as often. Again, depending on the style of architecture and type of building.

So help us out here a little with a few more clues. What type of steel building are you thinking of? Where in the country are you planning to build it, and will it be subject to planning, design review, and inspections?

 

[PacersDad]

Simple cold rolled galvanized steel joists. They have standard dimensions like wood from multiple manufacturers. They have tables for loads, spans. The joists get doubled to increase load and use gussets for roof trusses.
I'd like to compare the costs over dimensional lumber for framing.

 

[GLyford]

Try this to start with, it has span tables as you page further in:
http://www.steelnetwork.com/Content/Res/PDF/Catalogs/TSN_Standard_Stud_Tech_Catalog.pdf
but do notice that there is a vastly larger amount of products out there than a local box store carries, most of which will not carry much of a load compared to the material listed in the span tables, so you will have to find a construction supplier and get pricing. There will also be a difference between retail and trade pricing, and bulk quantity.

There's also a bunch of good construction details in this:
http://www.steelframing.org/PDF/quicklinks/Low-RiseResidentialConstructionDetails.pdf

Note that labor can be a good bit of the cost, and it will depend on if the crew builds a lot of them or will have to learn as they go, and if the supporting trades like drywall are used to working with it too.

If you are thinking of working with a builder, most of them will know what their costs are and what their crew availability will be for a particular type of project and could at least give you a ballpark % difference they have seen in their work. Part of that, of course is that if your design will follow the systems they are used to using.

And last but not least, I'm sure there are a bunch of other TBN members who have priced buildings both ways to be able to give you a ballpark in what they have seen in their area.

In my area, most of the builders still use wood, though they have mostly transitioned to 2x6 exterior walls and zip system sheathing. You only really see the light steel in basement remodels and commercial use, so I would expect to pay a premium for the labor alone, being a smaller pool to pick from.

 

[PacersDad]

I have a lot of that, downloaded from Marino and Clark Dietrich sites. But I like your second link very much. It provides a lot of detail.
I guess I will just try for a 55 psf snow load and 40 psf live load after materials weight. I am planning a gambrel roof shed on foundation in Ma.

 

[Ed of all trades]

Just my :2cents: worth. I built the trusses for my little shop, It was small so no inspection needed. I am in the process of adding on so I had to get an engineering for them because now the whole thing has to pass inspection and it cost me over $400 and that was less than the first place I went. So if you will ever need an inspection buy the trusses instead of making your own, because they don't care how they are built they just want to see the paper. Ed

 

[GLyford]

If you are under 200 SF for most of Mass, you can do whatever you want (used to be 120)...though I think there may still be a few communities still enforcing the old 120 rules. Still have to follow all your setbacks for your zone, of course.

For a shed, there are other options to economize. I scrounged the framing and siding for this, just had to buy the roofing, flashing, and fasteners. This was built under the old 120 rules:






Pallet racking, steel studs, a beam with trolley and hoist, and siding all from CL. Even at that short 4' span, I was outside the rated loading of the studs, so switched to wood 2x4's for the upper roof. If you do the gambrel part right, you get a storage shelf in the roof overhang.

I've done studs on slab, studs on skids (friend's shed), studs on post footings (enclosed porch), steel on slab, and simple pole structures (woodshed on blocks with braces, garden shed on slab). Pole barn type structures may or may not save you some on materials, but they also go together very fast, especially if you aren't going to finish off the inside. T1-11 siding, metal siding, or board-and-batten using locally sourced roughsawn native lumber can go quick.

And if it doesn't need to be inspected, you can use native lumber for the structure, too. That will save you a lot more than switching to steel studs, even scrounged ones. Just have to get used to working with full dimension lumber. Full dimension roughsawn, pole or studs on 2' centers, with roughsawn board-and-batten or shiplap is a very New England sort of shed. If economy is the biggest concern, metal roofing, or the UV-rated plastic panels are good. I'd avoid the Ondura stuff, personally. I use OSB and shingles on most of mine just to match the house.

 

[GLyford]

Of course if you want the full New England experience, I can hook you up with a timberframer, but he doesn't work cheap.

 

[PacersDad]

I found a guy on CL from providence, RI that builds a roughsawn 24x24 for $19k.
I'm aiming at 28x32 with gambrel roof allowing a 2nd floor.

 

[GLyford]

OK, you're talking bigger than the usual residential "below inspection" max, then, no matter how you slice it. Are you zoned "Ag", would this qualify as a pole barn and not need inspection because of that? Some of the towns near me if you are in the ag district you can build bigger stuff as long as it's pole framed, not on a slab or foundation.

That quote is about half what the prefab guys in Douglas want for a 24x24 two-story gambrel garage (admittedly studwall, siding and fancy windows).

Does that number include site prep and foundation? You may be hard pressed to beat that, unless you have the time to swing a hammer yourself. You may also find going with the same guy that going bigger is still reasonable, building costs don't always scale the same as the area or volume.

The flip side is, by not paying someone else, you can often justify things to enhance your own productivity (compressors, nailers...maybe a tractor, this is TBN after all). I paid for a lunchbox planer on the first piece of furniture I made with it by buying roughsawn vs. planed hardwood, and it allowed me to go up to full dimension lumber rather than the 3/4" you normally see everywhere.

Have you talked to any of the barn guys like Morton, etc.?