Swapping Robin out with Kohler today

   #1  

Frank Sorbello

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Getting ready to pull the 22hp Robin and install 25 actually 23.5hp Kohler in 422. So far I have the muffler off, battery out, gas tank and bracket out, throttle and choke cables disconnected, battery cables disconnected.

Terry had said to loosen the bolt engine bolts. Then I can slide the motor forward a couple inches that will help in removing the back pump. Should I loosen them where they bolt onto the engine stand? I have hydraulic pumps on the front and back of the engine. The pump on the back looks easy enough. There is a coupler on the front that I am not familiar with unhooking.

I also see I have a lot of wear on the two hydraulic hoses that feed the oil cooler. I better replace them before I put the new engine in.
 
   #2  

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Good luck Frank on the swap!
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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Thanks Murph! I am going to need it. Not too mechanically inclined.
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I have 3 of the 4 bolts that mounts engine to the stand loose. I am having trouble getting to the left front one by the starter. Any suggestions?
 
   #6  

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Getting ready to pull the 22hp Robin and install 25 actually 23.5hp Kohler in 422. So far I have the muffler off, battery out, gas tank and bracket out, throttle and choke cables disconnected, battery cables disconnected.

Terry had said to loosen the bolt engine bolts. Then I can slide the motor forward a couple inches that will help in removing the back pump. Should I loosen them where they bolt onto the engine stand? I have hydraulic pumps on the front and back of the engine. The pump on the back looks easy enough. There is a coupler on the front that I am not familiar with unhooking.

I also see I have a lot of wear on the two hydraulic hoses that feed the oil cooler. I better replace them before I put the new engine in.

Just a thought on the Love Joy coupler , Not sure how far you have gotten yet but good advise on taking lots of pictures. You also might want to make some sort of scribe marks around the side and front of the engine mount or bracket..

Also on the front of the pump base where the coupler links up, to make sure when you put it all back together the couplers line up properly. If not it will vibrate and eat the rubber spider in the middle up in a short amount of time.. Just a thought..
 
   #7  

tmarks11

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I have 3 of the 4 bolts that mounts engine to the stand loose. I am having trouble getting to the left front one by the starter. Any suggestions?
Just not enough room to get a ratchet or a combo wrench in there? Or is it stuck?
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I pulled the 22hp Robin out today. Engine stand is unbolted, however the right rear wheel motor hydraulic line runs through the middle of the stand. Looks as though I will have to disconnect line at wheel motor and pull it through to get the engine stand out. The two hydraulic lines from the oil cooler have a cracked insulation, so I am probably going to disconnect and have two new ones made up. I have to put in a new engine stand made for the kohler. This job is a lot harder than I anticipated.
IMG_0283.JPG IMG_0285.JPG IMG_0288.JPG IMG_0290.JPG.
 
   #9  

ponytug

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Hang in there. It always seems harder when you actually do it, but doing it is 10x the reward.

I worked for a guy who always suggested that we double our time estimate and multiply by 10 to get what it was really going to take. It was pretty accurate... :)

All the best,

Peter
 

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Before you crack any hydraulic fittings...
- Clean everything really, really well. Dirt is your hydraulic systems enemy.
- Make sure you have a plan to plug and/or elevate any opened fittings and hoses higher than the level of the reservoir tank or plug it well. It can and will drain all of your hydraulic fluid onto the floor if you drop the open end of a hose, or open a fitting that's lower than the level in the tank. Several folks have found this out.

As you've guessed, now is the time to check and replace any questionable hoses. You don't want to find them after you've put it all back together.

Where are you getting the Kohler compatible plate?
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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Terry has been great. I ordered the engine stand for the Kohler today from PT along with a new wire harness, couplers, hour meter and ignition switch.
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I was thinking about draining the hydraulic tank, and possibly using synthetic. Any thoughts on this?
 

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I did that. I can't say that I noticed any difference. I was glad to see how clean the tank was at the very bottom.

I put in Mobil synthetic 15W50, but there is no appreciable difference when hot, so I would stick with 15W40.

YMMV.

All the best,

Peter
 

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I've been adding Mobil1 to the hydraulic tank each time I do my 50 hour filter change since 2001. So, I have about 10-12 quarts diluting the original factory oil. Can't say I notice any difference because it's been such a gradual dilution. But then again, I can't say I'm disappointed with the way the thing works, either. I'd be curious to look in the bottom of my tank. Maybe I'll dissect a filter this time after I change it.
 

woodlandfarms

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I think the only real note MIGHT be the oil running cooler. Seems to be a theory for whatever reason going around that Synthetic keep a device a bit cooler.

I put in the cheapest 10/40 I can find, primarily because my tractor tends to use more oil than Diesel.
 
   #16  

ponytug

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If your thermostat is functioning, how can the oil run cooler?

Confused,

Peter
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I believe this is a solenoid. It has a red wire that goes to the starter. Was wondering where I can find a replacement. It is attached to the inside of the of the tub by the starter. Image.jpgImage 1.jpg

Thanks
Frank
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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The one hose coming off the oil cooler is a piece of cake to swap out, however the second looks like it is going to be a real headache. In the front lower left hand corner of the tub there is a manifold of hoses that tie into the reservoir. This hose appears to be on the bottom row under these here in the picture. I am guessing I will have to take all these hoses off to get to the one I need to take off.Image 2.jpg
 
   #19  

tmarks11

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It would have been nice if PT had hard-piped most of the hydraulics in the engine compartment (except for the point of connections to the pumps and going through the tunnel). Would have save a bunch of room and made the beast easier to maintain.
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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At a sticking point with one of the cooler hydraulic hoses. It is in the lower left corner of the tub at the reservoir. There are five other hoses. I removed the hose over top of it and one to the side, however I still cannot get a wrench on the fitting. The male fitting of the hose I removed is in the way. Are there special wrenches for this? Real tight spot and afraid if the I were to get a wrench on it, if it slips I will mess up the threads on male fitting directly above. I agree 1000% with you Tim, hard piping definitely would have been better in the tub.
 
   #22  

ponytug

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I bought some offset angle wrenches from HF that I use to get the hydraulic hoses. (1/2" to 1 1/2" set) You can swap ends and get ~17 degrees of motion if you have to.
There are some really challenging ones on my tub, too.

All the best,

Peter
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I bought a set of Crow Feet from Sears today. It won't budge! I have very little room. Afraid I am going to break off the nipple on the tank. It is the bottom hose closest to the tub wall.Image 3.jpg
 
   #24  

tmarks11

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How about surgery? Cut the hose off so you can get a deep-well 6 point socket over it with a 1/2" drive breaker bar on it...
 
   #25  

ponytug

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Before you cut it off, I would put some PowerBlaster, or something similar on it, and tap (not hit!) it a couple of times and give it some time to soak in. The fitting has been through a bunch of hot/cold cycles and has some amount of corrosion on it for sure. Having cracked one of the hose flange nuts, I think that the difference between "normal", i.e. leak free, torque and broken is small.

If you have all of the flammables out of the way and some water in the bottom of your tub, I might think of a small bit of heat from a heat gun or a butane micro torch.

Along the lines of "It is plugged in, right?" I feel compelled to ask "Righty, tighty, lefty, loosey, right?"

Once you give up on it, a wrench with a piece of pipe is your friend.

All the best,

Peter
 
   #26  

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Before you cut it off, I would put some PowerBlaster, or something similar on it, and tap (not hit!) it a couple of times and give it some time to soak in. The fitting has been through a bunch of hot/cold cycles and has some amount of corrosion on it for sure. Having cracked one of the hose flange nuts, I think that the difference between "normal", i.e. leak free, torque and broken is small.

If you have all of the flammables out of the way and some water in the bottom of your tub, I might think of a small bit of heat from a heat gun or a butane micro torch.

Along the lines of "It is plugged in, right?" I feel compelled to ask "Righty, tighty, lefty, loosey, right?"

Once you give up on it, a wrench with a piece of pipe is your friend.

All the best,

Peter

It looks like a JIC fitting. If so, it should be easy to get off once you break it loose.
I might disconnect the other end and see if you can fit an offset wrench (like this: 8 Piece Metric Offset Box Wrench Set or make your own with a torch and a HF wrench) over the hose and down to the fitting.

Aaron Z
 
   #27  

woodlandfarms

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Here is one thing I have found. If you can get a wrench on it, and then put a pipe on the wrench it will move. It is scary as all heck, but nice steady heavy pressure will get that to go.

You are concerned you are going to mess up the nipple. Well guess what, it is already messed up. there is a pipe stuck to it and you can't complete your project until you get it off. Once that gets in your head then it is a bit less scary (Trust me, I live in the above place all the time and it is what I have to do to get through it. Fear of taking something off and never getting it back on is perpetual with me.

Pretty sure those nipples coming out of the tank are replaceable. You are not going to screw up because they are rated at like some crazy high PSI and "strong as ox" but if you do mess up, you can replace them Ain't fun but not impossible.
 
   #28  

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Can you remove the other end of that hose and snake it where you need it instead of disconnecting that end?
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I was able to get the hose off. I had to disconnect all the hoses first then take off all the fittings in the tank. A couple felt like they were going to snap off but they didn't. Now I am trying to dry up all the old oil and debris and put an Earl Scheib paint job in the tub. No matter how much you wipe it down, it is still oily. Not sure what I am going to do, but I know one thing, it ain't going to be pretty.
 
   #31  

tmarks11

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Now I am trying to dry up all the old oil... No matter how much you wipe it down, it is still oily.
Oil has soaked through the pores in the steel. As much as you wipe up, it will keep bubbling back to the surface.

How about something like Gunk HD Engine degreaser?

Maybe warming the steel with a propane torch to help bake out the oil?
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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Next step is replacing the wire harness. Anyone ever do this? Is there an easy way to snake the new wire harness thru all the hydraulic hoses?

Thanks
Frank
 

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Two choices on wiring. Tape the new wire to the old wire and pull it through or fish it with a stronger wire

I don't know your machine but you may want to re design your wiring. My machine suffers from a poor design so when it fails I am going to do a major rebuild
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I was able to pull the new harness through with ease. Thanks Woodland Farms, i taped the new to the old and just pulled it through.
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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I need a new voltage regulator for the 25hp Kohler. Is there a specific regulator for Kohler? I've looked on line not exactly sure what the voltage regulator does, so not sure which one is best for the Power Trac. Terry said he doesn't have any at PT, and I should be able to find one pretty easily on line.
 

tmarks11

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I need a new voltage regulator for the 25hp Kohler. Is there a specific regulator for Kohler? I've looked on line not exactly sure what the voltage regulator does, so not sure which one is best for the Power Trac.
The voltage regulator takes the rippled AC output of the alternator, rectifies it to DC, and then reduces/controls it at about 14.5V. A non-functional regulator can damage the battery with too high a voltage, or maybe provide no voltage out at all.

Assuming you have a CH740 25 hp engine, you need a Kohler 2540332S. Here are some places to buy:
Amazon.com : Kohler 25 43 32-S Rectifier Regulator : Lawn Mower Deck Parts : Patio, Lawn & Garden
Regulator/Rectifier [254332-S] for Kohler Lawn Equipment | eReplacement Parts
Kohler Part # 2540332S Regulator Rectifier Efi [2540332S] : Kohler Engines and Kohler Engine Parts Store, Genuine Kohler Engine Parts
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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Any tips for cutting the shaft? Not looking forward to this part.
 

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Any tips for cutting the shaft? Not looking forward to this part.

Talk to Terry at Power Trac. He has some suggestions. He told me to keep a wet rag on the shaft to keep the oil seal from being damaged by the cutting heat.
 

tmarks11

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Use a chop saw with a fine tooth bimetal blade (unless you have a porta-band saw).

Take the cut slow; sort of like grinding HSS when you don't want to let the material heat up. Keep your hand on the shaft, and when it starts to get uncomfortable (130F), stop, pour some water on it, wait for it to cool down, rinse and repeat.

After you get done, you probably want to clean up the edges with a angle grinder. Again, take it slow, checking temperature frequently.
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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Thanks Tim & Bob. Not sure just yet how I am going to cut it. Bought some new carbide blades for my reciprocating saw, just nervous about cutting a shaft on a brand new $1600 engine. I asked Terry today what is the worst case scenario if I mess it up, he said you'll have a new boat anchor. Just what I needed to hear. lol
 

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I am not sure how long the shaft is and how much you have to cut off but can you put it on the cutoff side of a horizontal bandsaw and still cut it to the length you need? If you can, that would be the easiest.

Ken
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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Image.jpgImage 1.jpgImage 2.jpg

Cut the shaft today. Surprisingly very easy with hack saw and new blade. I took my time. It took about 20 minutes. Happy with the way it turned out.
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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Putting the motor in the tub. A couple of problems to solve. In what order does the motor go back in? I dropped it in, hoping that I aligned the front coupler with the front pump's coupler. I think I have it, but can't see to well to know for sure.

2 problems. 1 the rear motor holes are slightly off with the new engine stands holes. UGH!

2. I forgot to put on the spool or shroud cover that goes over the rear pump coupler. And that brings me to, if I had that shroud bolted to the housing over the shaft, there is no way I can fit the motor into the front pump the way I just did it. Is there an order of what gets hooked up first.
It's like one of those impossible puzzles with one right answer.
 

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MossRoad

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Without seeing yours and mine in front of me, I recall the shroud being cut out quit a bit. Don't really remember how its in there....
 

MossRoad

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Here's a picture of my variable volume pump on the front of the engine if its any help.
PT425VarVolPump.jpg
469414d1463873213-swapping-robin-out-kohler-today-pt425varvolpump-jpg


And of the PTO/Steering pumps on the back of the engine.
PT425PTOPump.jpg
469415d1463873243-swapping-robin-out-kohler-today-pt425ptopump-jpg
 
  
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Frank Sorbello

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It is pretty much the same set up Moss. When I removed the engine I took out the motor mount bolts (4), Slid the engine a couple inches forward. Unbolted the rear spool that goes over the shaft and rear pump coupler. Dropped the rear pump. I then pulled the motor back to disengage from the front pump. I then could lift the engine. I am trying to reverse the process, but something is not right.

The front pump coupler seems much larger than the one that was on the Subaru. The new one is a big lovejoy aluminum one. On my Robin Subaru there was a small shaft on the front of the pump. There isn't a shaft on the front of the pump. The new coupler has 4 allen bolts that bolt to the flywheel assembly. I have a new engine stand that was made for the Kohler. Only difference from the original stand (robin subaru) it appears to be about 1/2" taller.

I wish the back of the tub was like a tailgate on a pick up, so you could open it up and put the motor and pumps in all as one,
 

tmarks11

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I wish the back of the tub was like a tailgate on a pick up, so you could open it up and put the motor and pumps in all as one,
A sawzall to open and a welding torch to close....

I spent 4 years in the Navy at Electric Boat while they built our submarine.

The mentality of a group who are really good at welding is interesting. They think nothing of chopping a 3'x3' access hole through 1"+ thick steel submarine hull to run services (power,pneumatics, ventilation). Need to work on a valve in an inconvenient spot? Cut a 10' section of pipe out and that way you can do the work in comfort at a workbench...
 

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I'm just gonna guess that they assemble the whole engine/pump assembly on a bench at PT and then drop it in as a unit. I think that's how I'd remove and install mine if if ever comes to that. I just wonder how they get their itty bitty hands and crooked arms in there to hook up the hoses!
 
 
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