TODAYS OILS VERSUS YESTERDAYS MANUALS

[namesray]

JUST BEEN WONDERING LATELY IS THERE A TIME WHEN THE OPERATOR MANUALS BECOME OUT DATED AS TECHNOLOGY ADVANCES, ESPECIALLY WITH THE FLUID CHANGE INTERVALS. MORE TO THE POINT, MY 2007 KUBOTA B7800 MANUAL STATES TO CHANGE THE TRANSMISSION/HYDRAULIC (SUDT) OIL EVERY 300 HOURS. AS TIME WENT ON, KUBOTA REPLACED THE REGULAR UDT AND SUDT OILS WITH SUDT2 WHICH IS SYNTHETIC. I AM GUESSING THE REGULAR UDT AND SUDT ARE NOT SYNTHETIC. NOW, MY 2012 KUBOTA B3200 MANUAL STATES TO CHANGE THE SUDT2 OIL (TRANSMISSION/HYDRAULIC) EVERY 400 HOURS WITH JUST A HST FILTER CHANGE AT THE EVERY 200 HOUR MARK. I AM WONDERING IF IT WOULD BE FINE TO NOW DO THE 2007 B7800 THE SAME AS THE 2012 B3200 (EVERY 400 HOURS INSTEAD OF 300 HOURS) WITH THE NEW SYNTHETIC SUDT2 OIL. I HAVE ASKED MY DEALER AND KUBOTA AND THEY SAY DO AS THE "MANUAL" SAYS, BUT NEVER SAY WHY. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK AND WHAT ARE YOU OWNERS OF SOME OF THE LITTLE BIT OLDER TRACTORS DOING NOW WITH TODAY'S OILS? THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR INPUT.

 

[Soundguy]

i really don't consider a 2007 tractor older.

I think i'd stick to what the manual says on that new tractor.....

you are compairing 2 different machines too.

 

[MHarryE]

Kubota has published an updated change interval on their web site. Didn't check yours so I don't know if it is listed but it's worth checking.

 

[Texasmark]

I have a real problem with this subject.

I have an 8 year old tractor with a FEL and 800 hours on it. Not what you would call wearing it out. It doesn't see harsh environments. It's kept under a shed. I am the only operator. I always run it till the temp gauge gets up pretty good every time I start it....no turn it on run it for 5 min and shut it off. I live in Texas. It gets an annual workout preparing about 7 acres for a hay crop and that's about it.

The oil sump is 15 gallons for a 65 hp tractor. Recommended change interval is 300 hours. Last season I changed the oil filter and it was spotless, 2nd time since new. The oil that spilled out of the sump in the process was spotless, with no odor other than the fact that it was petroleum.

I use the recommended premium replacement oil that meets all the OEM specks, like J20C for example, made for multifunction wet brake, hyd, shuttle, and all the toys of today when topping off is necessary.


Yeah I spent $37k for the thing and yeah that's a lot of $$$$. But changing oil for the sake of change just seems like a waste of money and resources so I don't. Opinion: When an OEM posts recommended practices, regardless of the subject, he is putting out the word for the world of users in all environments, under all conditions etc. etc. I mean this thing was built in Korea where they have flooded rice fields and things of the sort. The R1 tires on it in the brochures have huge lugs for the task.

I realize that "common sense isn't very common" to quote a phrase someone else uses on a different forum, but it just doesn't make sense to me to change just for the sake of change. So I don't. Maybe in another 8 years I will regret it, or another 16, but I'll probably be dead by then. Oh well.

Mark

 

[namesray]

surprised more people haven't jumped on this one. a lot have somewhat older tractors and the oils today have changed quite a bit and I have come across quite a few here that follow the book on tractor oil changes (including me) and I am just surprised more people don't question this like I do.

any way I am on an on going quest to try to save some money today. I know the tractors cost thousands and I will be only saving few hundreds, but I feel there is a sensible alternative that will still work, or at least I "think" there "might" be. I am just researching and thought I would try tbn.

 

[namesray]

another question. what goes bad with the trans/hydraulic fluid? everytime I did the manual required changes, it comes out as clear as the day I poured it in. the b7800 has 1430 hours and the b3200 has 523 hours, so a few changes to base it on. what does go bad, and why would one tractor require a change 100 hours sooner then another very very similar one? (b7800=same filters, same fluid, same amount of fluid, same hst, same 3ph. as the b3200) thanks again

 

[MHarryE]

another question. what goes bad with the trans/hydraulic fluid? everytime I did the manual required changes, it comes out as clear as the day I poured it in. the b7800 has 1430 hours and the b3200 has 523 hours, so a few changes to base it on. what does go bad, and why would one tractor require a change 100 hours sooner then another very very similar one? (b7800=same filters, same fluid, same amount of fluid, same hst, same 3ph. as the b3200) thanks again

Very good question. I worked in Engineering at Cat. Most equipment went out with straight SAE 10 hydraulic oil. Change interval when I started with them in 1989 was 1,000 hours. When I retired in 2009 they had released their new Advanced 10 hydraulic oil and it the recommended change interval 4,000 hours with oil sampling, 2,000 hours without sampling.

So why do tractors require such frequent changes? I question the need, but I am going by the book and dumping perfectly good looking oil into the county recycling tank. I sampled my new Kubota at the first change and the sample results showed it was like new with almost no wear particles and no deterioration. I will continue sampling for my own interest (I also share results with my dealer), but I will also continue to change oil per recommended hours although I may bend the rules on hours if the samples continue okay.

 

[SwingOak]

One thing to be careful about when substituting synthetics for lubes that are not - synthetics are slipperier and the viscosity does not break down significantly, which is why they last longer and can extend the change interval. However, the anti-wear characteristics can work against you, sometimes catastrophically. Bearings can slip instead of roll, causing major damage. This is especially true with non-ball bearings. It is probably best to use lubricants that are recommended by the manufacturer, and if you would like to switch to something else, make a call to the manufacturer and check to see if there would be any issues.. That free call might just save you thousands!

 

[Texasmark]

My tractor has a massive front axle containing 2.5 gallons of multifunction fluid. After using it for some time I decided to check the oil; each outer gearbox adjacent to the tire has a fill plug with a dipstick. I needed to add some oil to bring it up to spec....still had factory fill with no visible leaks on an 8 year old tractor. I didn't have any of the recommended multifunction fluid, but I did have some Amsoil full syn multifunction fluid I bought for my ZT....so I topped it off with that. Almost immediately I noticed that it was significantly easier to engage M4WD. Pretty much supports the slippery comments for me.

Called Cummins when I bought the thing and asked them if I could use Rot T 5W-40 full syn in it (B 3.3). Their comment was: "Sir, your engine would love to have that for your oil". My 2011 Chevy P/U has a 100k mile power train warranty. My owners manual has change recommendations for the engine oil which is specified to be "GM Dexos". Ha! If you pick up a jug of Mobil 1 (0W-30 is what I use), guess what? There is a Dexos logo on the container. So much for that. No listed fluid changes for tranny or diff. You don't suppose all of a sudden GM started using synthetics for all the power train and that's how we get this kind of a warranty? Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

One last comment. I do a lot of mowing with air cooled mowers. I used to use premium dino oil and had to change a couple of times a season due to it getting dirty, with filters and all on fairly new equipment. Using WW 10W-30 full syn, I go the entire season and for light duty equip sometimes 2 years without the oil getting dirty enough to change.

Never had a problem with it, however I have heard of spinning a sleeve bearing and have heard of balls not spinning in ball bearings. Never happened to me.

My 2c,
Mark

 

[SwingOak]

Years ago I had a K5 Blazer. Three weeks after I bought it used from a GM dealer, we found out the block was cracked, and the dealer replaced it. A bunch of stuff broke or had problems when they were swapping engines, and as it ended up they replaced the complete engine and everything that attached to it, including the transmission and exhaust system.

When I picked it up, I asked how soon I should change the oil and they said 3000 miles was fine, but not to use synthetic oil until there was at least 5000 miles on it. When I asked why, I was told that it would not break in properly, "So you're telling me if I use synthetic oil, my engine won't wear." And the answer basically was that was true. So when I got to my second oil change at 5000 miles, I switched to Mobil 1. When I sold it 130,000 miles later that truck still ran smooth, started easy, and didn't burn a drop of oil. I use Mobil 1 in all my vehicles.

 

[namesray]

thanks for all the input guys. very interesting and informatitive read. I have been asking quite a few diesel mechanics that work on large trucks and all sorts of equipment and all of them have said that I am changing oils/coolants way too much at the recommended intervals I say the manuals say and they tell me I am just throwing money away. I have been doing a lot of research and thinking on this subject, and think I am close to forgetting the manual's recommended change intervals (in most catagories) and changing it on a schedule of my own and increase most of the fluid changes. the only one I agree with the manuals on is the engine oil/filter changes.

I have two distant neighbors that both have Kubota tractors. one is a L2350 (older one) has over 5000 hours on it (hour meter broke there) and he hardly ever changes anything except the engine oil and get this, he uses just the regular Pennzoil brand only rated sm instead of diesel oil rated cf. he has never changed the coolant and he uses it. it still works for him. it has had a few issues (only a few) along the way, but still is a good tractor for him. he has had it for around 10 years or more (he did buy it used).

my other neighbor has a bx23 tlb and he bought his used 7 years ago. he puts over 150 hours per year on it and he only changes engine oil. never touched the coolant. in the transmission/hydraulic system he has been running the tractor supply "travelers premium tractor fluid" and says he doesn't have any issues with it even in the northern Pennsylvania winters. he has never even changed the trans/hyd filters in those 7 years either. the biggest problem it has is some leaky hyd hoses and fittings which he has been replacing as they go. tractor has over 2000 hours on it.

so what gives here? I am not saying just neglect your equipment, but I think the manual's recommended fluid changes are a little off. my quest and research continues.

 

[JasG]

Very good question. I worked in Engineering at Cat. Most equipment went out with straight SAE 10 hydraulic oil. Change interval when I started with them in 1989 was 1,000 hours. When I retired in 2009 they had released their new Advanced 10 hydraulic oil and it the recommended change interval 4,000 hours with oil sampling, 2,000 hours without sampling.

So why do tractors require such frequent changes? I question the need, but I am going by the book and dumping perfectly good looking oil into the county recycling tank. I sampled my new Kubota at the first change and the sample results showed it was like new with almost no wear particles and no deterioration. I will continue sampling for my own interest (I also share results with my dealer), but I will also continue to change oil per recommended hours although I may bend the rules on hours if the samples continue okay.

I've been around both ag and construction stuff most of my life. I do know ag equipment seems to have issues with oil sooner than construction just based on my (limited world I must admit) experience. My theory is that farm equipment sees more sources to contaminate the oil. Connecting machines that may or may not have the same oil in them, also higher moisture. Being around a farm the air is not only moist but in some areas can be acidic due to the animal waste and feed storage on beef and dairy farms. Many construction companies have things dedicated for a fluid, like funnels (one for each fluid used). On farms one funnel is what most have so it sees engine oil, hyd, etc, and fluids are stored in less than ideal conditions. I know this that with my dozer I had I never had a fluid issue, but I didn't run it that much over 4-5 years I had it. I service farm equipment for a friend of mine and 2 years and the oil is getting milky. Same oil used in all machines, and even the cutter bar on his disk mower, but again that is always in and around wet hay.

At one time Cat was using one fluid for the whole machine, I think it was 30w engine oil. That would have been in the late 1970's early 1980's.

 

[namesray]

in my quest for more info/experience on this subject, I asked the mechanics where I work (state trans dept) and they were telling me that all hydraulic fluid in all the different equipment (and that's quite a bit of equipment) never gets changed just for a change interval. it only gets topped off if needed (such as if hose breaks or so) and only gets the hydraulic filters changes regularly. all equipment gets the same utf. further more they said all the gas engine pick ups trucks and cars get 15w 40 diesel oil in the engines and those vehicles call for 5w 20 to 10w 30 oil. those same vehicles are getting up to over 200 thousand miles on them and still running good. another go figure.

I am noticing a trend with all my research that different environments and operating habits will affect change oil intervals as mentioned a few times above. so I ask, do equipment manufactures run studies per equipment and per oil specs to come to their change intervals? if so, are the hour limits they print the average or the worst possible scenarios of conditions and operating habits?????????????? because I have never came across this information from any dealer or literature or manufacture.

 

[JasG]

in my quest for more info/experience on this subject, I asked the mechanics where I work (state trans dept) and they were telling me that all hydraulic fluid in all the different equipment (and that's quite a bit of equipment) never gets changed just for a change interval. it only gets topped off if needed (such as if hose breaks or so) and only gets the hydraulic filters changes regularly. all equipment gets the same utf. further more they said all the gas engine pick ups trucks and cars get 15w 40 diesel oil in the engines and those vehicles call for 5w 20 to 10w 30 oil. those same vehicles are getting up to over 200 thousand miles on them and still running good. another go figure.

I am noticing a trend with all my research that different environments and operating habits will affect change oil intervals as mentioned a few times above. so I ask, do equipment manufactures run studies per equipment and per oil specs to come to their change intervals? if so, are the hour limits they print the average or the worst possible scenarios of conditions and operating habits?????????????? because I have never came across this information from any dealer or literature or manufacture.

Most oil change ratings are worst case, remember new equipment will come with a warranty so they want to make sure it will cover. It is also why many larger fleet owners will sample oil, big dollars can be saved. Also advances in oils and fuel in the last few years have been huge. One tractor I service the manual calls for 200 hour changes, but with the ULSD and the newest oils it should be 500 hours. I still do it at 250 hour mainly because that is twice a year, which is the other rating of 6 months. Any machine will warm over the day and cool at night even when not being run. Around here this draws in moisture and it ends up in the oil.

I have a newer tractor and it states in the manual if I don't use ULSD fuel to cut the hours between changes in half. It's not like it was 20 years ago where oil advances with 10-20 years apart, now the tech changes sometimes in months. Fuel with diesel makes a difference in oil change due to sulfur content and other issues that effect the oil.

As far as cars and trucks go due to CAFE standards the OEMs are trying to squeeze every ounce of MPG from each vehicle. Lower weight oils will reduce drag on everything and get slightly better MPG. My truck comes with synthetic oil in the rear end only to gain MPG, and many vehicles use 0W-20 or 5W-20 engine oil for the same reason.

Fuel economy race brings expensive oil to inexpensive cars

But what's behind so many makers of ordinary cars requiring expensive synthetic oil in the first place? Linden says automakers can save between 0.5 and 1 percent on EPA fuel economy tests compared with 5W-20 motor oil. The tests are run starting with a cold engine, so the lower viscosity reduces friction until the engine warms up.

Indeed, when Honda first presented us with details about the 2012 CR-V, company engineers emphasized that they had gained 2 mpg in EPA fuel economy ratings mainly by reducing friction in the engine and other mechanical components, not by introducing new technologies like direct fuel injection or continuously variable transmissions.

Why Zero Weight Oils Drive New Vehicle Fuel Economy | Royal Purple - Synthetic Motor Oil & Performance Lubricants

 

[namesray]

Most oil change ratings are worst case, remember new equipment will come with a warranty so they want to make sure it will cover. It is also why many larger fleet owners will sample oil, big dollars can be saved. Also advances in oils and fuel in the last few years have been huge. One tractor I service the manual calls for 200 hour changes, but with the ULSD and the newest oils it should be 500 hours. I still do it at 250 hour mainly because that is twice a year, which is the other rating of 6 months. Any machine will warm over the day and cool at night even when not being run. Around here this draws in moisture and it ends up in the oil.

I have a newer tractor and it states in the manual if I don't use ULSD fuel to cut the hours between changes in half. It's not like it was 20 years ago where oil advances with 10-20 years apart, now the tech changes sometimes in months. Fuel with diesel makes a difference in oil change due to sulfur content and other issues that effect the oil.

As far as cars and trucks go due to CAFE standards the OEMs are trying to squeeze every ounce of MPG from each vehicle. Lower weight oils will reduce drag on everything and get slightly better MPG. My truck comes with synthetic oil in the rear end only to gain MPG, and many vehicles use 0W-20 or 5W-20 engine oil for the same reason.

Fuel economy race brings expensive oil to inexpensive cars



Why Zero Weight Oils Drive New Vehicle Fuel Economy | Royal Purple - Synthetic Motor Oil & Performance Lubricants

agree. this is the conclusion I was starting to come to on how and why manufactures set the change intervals. as for the diesel oil change intervals and the ulsd fuels, I agree as well. my 2007 b7800 manual states engine oil changes every 100 hours with filter every 200 hours. this was back before the ultra low sulfer diesel fuels (ulsd) and had 500+ ppm sulfer content. my 2012 b3200 (similar engine) with a tier 4 interim engine made for the ulsd (less then 5ppm sulfer content) states engine oil and filter changes every 200 hours or double that of the b7800. read that the new epa emmisions regulations allowed the tier 4's run cleaner and thus longer oil change intervals. not sure if I can now increase the b7800 to 200 hours for the engine oil changes or not since it now runs the ulsd fuel. I am guessing not simply due to the engine is still a tier 3 and combusts differently. like I said earlier, I tend to agree with the manual's engine oil changes for the most part, it is really the transmission and hydraulic oils change intervals I am questioning heavily. research still ongoing. keep your responses coming. I am learning a lot.

 

[Texasmark]

Years ago I had a K5 Blazer. Three weeks after I bought it used from a GM dealer, we found out the block was cracked, and the dealer replaced it. A bunch of stuff broke or had problems when they were swapping engines, and as it ended up they replaced the complete engine and everything that attached to it, including the transmission and exhaust system.

When I picked it up, I asked how soon I should change the oil and they said 3000 miles was fine, but not to use synthetic oil until there was at least 5000 miles on it. When I asked why, I was told that it would not break in properly, "So you're telling me if I use synthetic oil, my engine won't wear." And the answer basically was that was true. So when I got to my second oil change at 5000 miles, I switched to Mobil 1. When I sold it 130,000 miles later that truck still ran smooth, started easy, and didn't burn a drop of oil. I use Mobil 1 in all my vehicles.

Yepper and sir you caught the caveat. If you can't "wear in" a new engine properly, geez it must be pretty slick. Cummins told me the same thing when I called them about using ROT T full syn. They said super but at the first oil change interval which was 300 hrs. Ok for comparison purposes, at a constant 30 mph average that looks like 9000 miles to stop the wearing. Worked for me.

I recall years ago a product that sold as a crankcase additive. I think it was in a black plastic quart container. Saw a TV clip on it running several times where they had half a dozen engines sitting around. All the crankcases were drained and half had this additive only and the other half didn't. Difference in lockup times was impressive. So I asked myself was this product merely syn. oil? If not what was it?

I had an '88 Ford 3 liter V8 I bought new. I used dino oil and every time I changed the oil, even though I filled the filter prior to installation, I always got a couple of seconds of valve tappet rattle prior to the oil pressure coming up on restart after the change. Don't remember why, but I changed to syn oil and never again did I have that little rattle. Hmmmm you don't suppose the syn residue left from the old oil was slick enough to prevent it? If not what else?

Mark

 

[SwingOak]

One thing I should add when it comes to engine oil - although the viscosity of synthetic oil does not break down, the carrying capacity of solids and fines of synthetic oil is no greater than that of conventional oil. The carbon particles that blow past the rings and valves will still contaminate the oil, and cause engine wear if left in circulation for too long. The solution for this is to install an improved auxiliary filtration system to remove the fines that get past the standard oil filter, and to repalce the oil filter at regular intervals. You should also have the oil tested periodically. In my '02 Duramax, I change the oil at around 8000 miles (or when the "oil life" warning light comes on - that's based on differential pressure across the filter from what I've been told) instead of the recommended 5000 miles. That truck has 232,000 miles on it, with the last 200K of that on synthetic oil and it's running just fine.

Of course, for transmissions and gear cases where the oil is not exposed to the byproducts of combustion this does not apply - but then again I've never changed the gear oil in the one final drive of my IH that I didn't rebuild, and it still looks clean and sassy.