ULSD in 2007 Chinese Tractors

[SkyPup]

You must be one of those guys that figures if I read it on the Internet - then it must be true.

//greg//

Nope, I was simply one of those guys that assisted the diesel fuel industry and the EPA with the development of the ULSD fuel regulations over the past six or seven years......

Remember, sulfur stinks, it is NOT a lubricant, it is a just bad contaminate.

 

[thingy]

Well,thats good enough for me,,,only thing I know about sulpher is it stinks and we have some in our well water,they use it in matches and gunpowder to,[I think],,,,,case closed,,,??? [still will continue using power service,its supposed to keep fuel from gelling and clean injectors too??] thingy

 

[greg_g]

I am guessing you are mixing the fuel issue with the engine emission efficiency issue.

I will concede to 15ppm, think I made a typing error way back - then just continued to use the wrong number. But I am not mixing the fuel issue with the engine emission efficiency issue - as they're inextricably intertwined. The EPA sets the standards for emissions - and tell both the engine manufacturers AND the fuel industry what their goals are, and when to meet them. The engine manufacturers and fuel industry then go to work in tandem, engineering their respective products to achieve minimum standards on schedule.

What you're continuing to sidestep, is my point that the engine manufacturers have been given two completely different sets of goals and timetables; one for on-road and one for off-road. Herein lies the crux; on-road spec diesel fuel in off-road engineered diesel engines.

15ppm ULSD is currently the specified on-road fuel, mandatory for use in on-road vehicles manufactured after 1-1-2007. I think it goes without saying, that pre-2007 on-road vehicle owners will be pouring additives in along with the ULSD. The on-road timetable has been met.

But now consider the off-road timetables: fuels with sulfur levels no greater than 0.2 wt% (2,000 ppm) are used for certification testing of Tier 1-3 engines (off-road diesel). The Tier 4 phase-in start date is 2008, with full implementation by 2015. From 2011, all Tier 4 engines will be tested using fuels of 7-15 ppm sulfur content. A transition from the 2000 ppm specification to the 7-15 ppm specification will occur in the 2006-2010 period.

A 2007 Chinese tractor/dozer imported to the US need only be Tier 3 compliant. They're not required to be tested with OR be certified to burn 15 ppm USLD. Nor are any other off-road manufacturers, foreign or domestic.

You might find Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines enlightening.

//greg//

 

[greg_g]

I was simply one of those guys that assisted the diesel fuel industry and the EPA with the development of the ULSD fuel regulations over the past six or seven years.

So maybe then you grasp the point that MadReferee keeps sidestepping. Whereas the emission standards are eventually convergent, there are clearly two implementation timetables; one for on-road and one for off-road. And that the 2007 off-road engine design does not currently take into consideration the use of 2007 ULSD.

You however, have done a little sidestepping of your own, by sticking to an unqualified statement that sulphur is not a lubricant - when in fact the operative word is lubricity.

//greg//

 

[MadReferee]

As I posted earlier, the EPA has already issued a press release that stated the refineries were ahead of schedule in that 85% of all diesel is ULSD, not the scheduled 80%. The dates for compliance stated by the EPA are simply deadlines. For economic reasons if the refineries can get to 100% ULSD sooner they will. There is absolutely no guarantee that non-ULSD fuel (on or off road) will even be available in 2008, 2009 or 2010.

Where does that leave the chinese engine manufacturers? Up the creek probably. But then again, in California they already are.

 

[tat2z1969]

Humm so I guess all who use Biodiesel that has no sulfur at all are going to ruin their engines?
My understanding from reading the report from the SAE (society of automotive engineers) is that sulfur is a product that is not added ,but is extracted out of the diesel fuel final product to a lower percent. The effects of sulfur in diesel is that it helps to build up carbon on the face and back side of valves while helping to lubricate the valve seating surface, like lead did in gas engines. The lubricity is dependant on the oil carriers present in the diesel and without sulfur these oil carriers have a stronger state and some seal and rubber materials react adversely to it.
To state sulfur is the lone problem in my opinion is incorrect, after all there are many who run diesel engines on NO sulfur content fuels such as biodiesel and ethanol mixed fuels.
Since diesel engines already have hardened valve seats I don't see the problem running low or no sulfur, but if one is going to have a heart attack over ULSD then dump 4 oz of Marvel Mystery oil in the fuel tank when you fill up, cures everything except warts and pissing contests

 

[greg_g]

Humm so I guess all who use Biodiesel that has no sulfur at all are going to ruin their engines?

Way out of context Jim. That's little more than a sarcastic extension of "sulphur is not a lubricant" argument. BioDiesel has it's own core ingredients that provide lubricity. Just as sulphur is a core ingredient of fossil fuel. Again, that's lubricity - not lubricant.

The only thing I consider negative about BioDiesel - cost notwithstanding - is the comparatively lower BTU rating. And if you read the entire thread, you'll find that - in http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/1039434-post36.html - I stated "the hydroprocessing required to produce the <25ppm (should have read 15ppm) ULSD recipe physically removes sulfur and significant amounts of polar and aromatic compounds that give conventional diesel fuel adequate lubricating capability. Low lubricity in diesel fuel can cause engine problems unless treated with additives. Measurement of diesel fuel lubricity characteristics is important in order to monitor lubricity additives and final fuel quality".

So your "sulfur is the lone problem in my opinion is incorrect " statement has no legs. Oh, and I just noticed that the Tier 4 chart I tried to post in http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/1036713-post20.html came out wrong. The original chart can be viewed at Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

Nobody's having a heart attack about ULSD that I can see. I started the thread because I hoped that someone would actually provide a verifiable response regarding my suspicion that additives will indeed be needed when 2007 ULSD is eventually used in 2007 off-road diesels. When that was not forthcoming, I eventually confirmed it myself.

Ethanol-mixed diesel fuel? That's a new one on me.

//greg//

 

[greg_g]

Where does that leave the chinese engine manufacturers? Up the creek probably. But then again, in California they already are.

I suspected as much before, but this pretty much confirms it. You aren't even reading the reference material I link to.

//greg//

 

[MadReferee]

I have read it more than once.

It doesn't matter what tier an engine was tested for as the fuel that is available will dictate what the engine can use. If you are counting on LSD being available until 2010 then you are in for a really big surprise.

Nobody's having a heart attack about ULSD that I can see. I started the thread because I hoped that someone would actually provide a verifiable response regarding my suspicion that additives will indeed be needed when 2007 ULSD is eventually used in 2007 off-road diesels.

ULSD is already being used in what you call 2007 (model year I presume) off-road diesels. The EPA and the diesel industry has said that "NO ADDITIVES TO ULSD SHOULD BE NECESSARY". How much more proof do you need? Sheesh.

 

[greg_g]

I have read it more than once.

It doesn't matter what tier an engine was tested for as the fuel that is available will dictate what the engine can use. If you are counting on LSD being available until 2010 then you are in for a really big surprise.

ULSD is already being used in what you call 2007 (model year I presume) off-road diesels. The EPA and the diesel industry has said that "NO ADDITIVES TO ULSD SHOULD BE NECESSARY". How much more proof do you need? Sheesh.

You really and truly do not understand what you read. Either that, or you enjoy twisting the context in an effort to promote some self-image as an expert on everything. It **** well matters what fuel an engine is tested on, since fuel specs are factored into the design specs. And I never ever once even hinted at any expectations of LSD availability. You're making this stuff up. Mine is nothing more than a basic question about using additives in off-road engines that are fed the new ULSD. And I have cited diesel industry references that in fact DO recommend lubricity additives to 2007 USLD when used in off-road engines manufactured prior to Tier 4 implementation. You persist in using on-road arguments in what I started as - and am trying to keep - an off-road discussion, and not once have you provided a verifiable off-road information source to validate all your bantering.

I suspect all this negativity is scaring off folks who might otherwise share my interest in this topic, so I'd sincerely appreciate if you'd stop nit-picking, stop taking statements out of context, stop changing the subject, and - well - apply your self-proclaimed expertise elsewhere. I know this is an open forum, but I'd consider it a personal favor if you'd cease and desist. In my estimation your participation has been counterproductive to this particular discussion.

//greg//