Generic wheel motors

[scotts562]

Does anyone have experience using generic versions of the white ce400 wheel motors used on the smaller PTs? Anyone ever mix name brand wheel motors with generic versions on the same machine and if so, did it cause any problems?

I ask because I have had zero luck with rebuilds over the years. Try to keep a spare on the shelf. The price I am finding for White branded wheel motors has doubled in the past few years (now ~ $900 + each). White has been bought then sold by Sauer Danfoss recently. Current lead times from White are measured in months/years. There is a company in FL selling a knockoff. Appears to be china made. Single wheel motor for $ 530 each. Buy 5 or more $ 390 each.

Thanks in advance

 

[woodlandfarms]

What’s your motor doing?

 

[scotts562]

Seals give out and they start leaking oil

 

[m5040]

Just for reference, how many hours on your machine? Did you routinely change the hydraulic oil filter at every 50 hours?

 

[scotts562]

Over 4000 hrs on this one. Regular filter changes. I have multiple machines with this wheel motor hence the question about the generics.

 

[ponytug]

Over 4000 hrs on this one. Regular filter changes. I have multiple machines with this wheel motor hence the question about the generics.

I struggle with the cost benefit ratio for brand X hydraulic motors, as motors/pumps are intrinsically high precision, and a motor failure could take out all the pumps and motors since there is no in circuit filter for the motors. I will be awaiting the details of your trial, if you go forward with the generics.

I would take the time to flush the motor on the bench with clean oil before use.

All the best,

Peter

 

[scotts562]

I struggle with the cost benefit ratio for brand X hydraulic motors, as motors/pumps are intrinsically high precision, and a motor failure could take out all the pumps and motors since there is no in circuit filter for the motors. I will be awaiting the details of your trial, if you go forward with the generics.

I would take the time to flush the motor on the bench with clean oil before use.

All the best,

Peter

As a general rule, I agree with you. This machine may be the exception. The cost benefit changes when you buy enough wheel motors. No one can figure out why this particular machine loves blowing out wheel motors. I have learned to live with it. Shop around for the best price. Keep a spare on the shelf.

I used to worry about pieces from a failed wheel motor damaging other stuff. This machine received a new tram pump and pressure relief valve about 1200 hours ago. It looked like sand had been run thru the pump. (again, regular filter changes, i make my living with these machines so maintenance is cheap, down time expensive). Flushed the hydraulic system. The metal bits flushed out looked alot like welding slag. Still some slag stuck to the inside of the tank. I suppose it could have been deformed wheel motor pieces, but they sure didn't look like it.

I appreciate your input.

 

[oldnslo]

Do those motors have external case drain? If yes triple check that line since high case pressure is what typically causes seals to fail. If no case drain then would start by monitoring both work port pressures on that motor. One side needs to be low enough to prevent seal damage. Note: I am not sure what pressure the shaft seals are rated for.

 

[MossRoad]

As far as I know, none of the 400 series machines have case drains on the wheel motors. Maybe the newer ones do, but mine does not.

 

[ponytug]

As a general rule, I agree with you. This machine may be the exception. The cost benefit changes when you buy enough wheel motors. No one can figure out why this particular machine loves blowing out wheel motors. I have learned to live with it. Shop around for the best price. Keep a spare on the shelf.

I used to worry about pieces from a failed wheel motor damaging other stuff. This machine received a new tram pump and pressure relief valve about 1200 hours ago. It looked like sand had been run thru the pump. (again, regular filter changes, i make my living with these machines so maintenance is cheap, down time expensive). Flushed the hydraulic system. The metal bits flushed out looked alot like welding slag. Still some slag stuck to the inside of the tank. I suppose it could have been deformed wheel motor pieces, but they sure didn't look like it.

I appreciate your input.

It sounds like you have this in hand!

Welding slag like material is an odd one. I wonder it got there. Perhaps it could have been an inclusion in a pump or motor casting that broke free? Hopefully it was a one and done.

FWIW: There are bidirectional filters, for things like motor circuits, but when I looked into them, I decided that they were pricey, bulky, and made a hit on performance by the work needed to move oil through the filter.

All the best,

Peter

 

[scotts562]

It sounds like you have this in hand!

Welding slag like material is an odd one. I wonder it got there. Perhaps it could have been an inclusion in a pump or motor casting that broke free? Hopefully it was a one and done.

FWIW: There are bidirectional filters, for things like motor circuits, but when I looked into them, I decided that they were pricey, bulky, and made a hit on performance by the work needed to move oil through the filter.

All the best,

Peter

If it was slag, it was from when it was manufactured. Remaining welding splatter inside the tank is why I lean this way. I am the original owner of this machine. If my assessment is correct, it is pretty impressive the original pump made it ~ 2800 Hrs. Now have a magnet on the filter to try and capture metal.

Did not know they made such a thing as a bidirectional filter. That is good to know.

I own 5 Power Tracs. 422, 2422, 425, 2425, and 1430. I currently have 16 of these wheel motors in use, hence my thoughts on cost benefit.

The 425 is the only machine I bought new and is the one that eats wheel motors. I use this machine the most and as a result it has the highest priority on the maintenance schedule. The other 4 machines (ranging from 1999-2016) were bought used (3 commercial, 1 homeowner). From what I saw, only the 2425 had been maintained to the same level I have maintained my 425 since new. For the other machines, routine maintenance seems to have been taken as a suggestion. Rusted hydraulic filter, engine fire due to grass clipping build up, broken/welded wheel motor shaft from trying to move T barricades for a highway project, etc. As best I can tell, the used machines are still sporting mostly original wheel motors. The 425 seems to be a bit of a unicorn.

I appreciate the help

 

[scotts562]

On this machine I am currently running the older/smaller wheel motors (White CE 400230W3122AAAAA ) Power Trac has upgraded to a bigger wheel motor. If I have to order five wheel motors to get a bulk discount, may as well replace them all.

Does anyone know the model number for the newer/larger wheel motors used on the new PT 425? Do they fit in the old style motor mounts or do I need to replace these too?

 

[ponytug]

If it was slag, it was from when it was manufactured. Remaining welding splatter inside the tank is why I lean this way. I am the original owner of this machine. If my assessment is correct, it is pretty impressive the original pump made it ~ 2800 Hrs. Now have a magnet on the filter to try and capture metal.

Did not know they made such a thing as a bidirectional filter. That is good to know.

I own 5 Power Tracs. 422, 2422, 425, 2425, and 1430. I currently have 16 of these wheel motors in use, hence my thoughts on cost benefit.

The 425 is the only machine I bought new and is the one that eats wheel motors. I use this machine the most and as a result it has the highest priority on the maintenance schedule. The other 4 machines (ranging from 1999-2016) were bought used (3 commercial, 1 homeowner). From what I saw, only the 2425 had been maintained to the same level I have maintained my 425 since new. For the other machines, routine maintenance seems to have been taken as a suggestion. Rusted hydraulic filter, engine fire due to grass clipping build up, broken/welded wheel motor shaft from trying to move T barricades for a highway project, etc. As best I can tell, the used machines are still sporting mostly original wheel motors. The 425 seems to be a bit of a unicorn.

I appreciate the help

For welding slag from the tank to get to the motor circuit, it would have to pass through the suction filter, then the charge pump on the variable volume main drive (tram) pump and out to just that one wheel motor. It's not impossible, but I would have expected more collateral damage. If the tram pump dropped a chunk, I could see that possibly going to one wheel motor, but generally, it takes out all four, from what I hear.

If it is the seals going on the main axles, it could just be wear. I think seal failure is more tied to dirt/debris/water on the axle, and to a lesser extent, number of rotations, and load. I know for sure that my axle seal areas aren't clean, because on my 1445, I have to pull the wheels to get the last bit of gunk out of there. I haven't found a way that reliably gets them clean. The way I pressure wash the tractor, I don't seem to be able to get the last few bits of dry clay or twigs out of there. That is for sure a "YMMV" item.

I think given the number of PT 425s you have a set of replacements isn't such a bad idea. I would think about putting four new ones in your 425 with the newer pump, and using the good others as spares, or send them back to PT to be rebuilt. (BTW: Where are you located?)

All the best,

Peter

 

[scotts562]

For welding slag from the tank to get to the motor circuit, it would have to pass through the suction filter, then the charge pump on the variable volume main drive (tram) pump and out to just that one wheel motor. It's not impossible, but I would have expected more collateral damage. If the tram pump dropped a chunk, I could see that possibly going to one wheel motor, but generally, it takes out all four, from what I hear.

If it is the seals going on the main axles, it could just be wear. I think seal failure is more tied to dirt/debris/water on the axle, and to a lesser extent, number of rotations, and load. I know for sure that my axle seal areas aren't clean, because on my 1445, I have to pull the wheels to get the last bit of gunk out of there. I haven't found a way that reliably gets them clean. The way I pressure wash the tractor, I don't seem to be able to get the last few bits of dry clay or twigs out of there. That is for sure a "YMMV" item.

I think given the number of PT 425s you have a set of replacements isn't such a bad idea. I would think about putting four new ones in your 425 with the newer pump, and using the good others as spares, or send them back to PT to be rebuilt. (BTW: Where are you located?)

All the best,

Peter

Thank you for walking me thru the oil flow path. Clearest explanation I have heard.

Between rebuilds and new wheel motors I am somewhere over 12 wheel motor replacements. All 4 wheel motors on this machine have been replaced at least once. The front right gives out the most. Back right second most, back left third most. Front left has only been replaced once. They more or less go in sequence. This is closest thing to a pattern I have noticed. Just lost the front right for the second time. If the pattern holds as before, I expect to lose this one another time or two before the back right gives out. I do wonder if I missed something when I flushed the lines and it is somehow slowly floating around in the lines. This pattern also follows the pressure differences in the system from highest to lowest. The machine is currently at a hydraulic shop. They are testing pressures. I wouldn't think I would have the same problem from two separate pumps, but who knows.

This 425 is one of a very few with a Hydax? coupling between the engine and the pump instead of a spider. If I remember correctly, Power Trac said they only made 15 or so machines with this style of coupling. It is a hard plastic tube with splines on the inside. It mates up with a "gear" on the shafts of the motor and pump. I asked if the rubbery spider could provide just enough shock absorption to make a difference, but Power Trac didn't think so. Plus you would think the plastic spline teeth would strip out before creating an over pressure problem.

I try to power wash at every service. I can't get them clean either. When I swap from summer to winter tires there is always gunk built up behind the hub.

Replacing all 4 with generic wheel motors seems like the right thing to do. Less worry about tolerance differences with the originals. Might as well upgrade to bigger wheel motors while I'm at it. Hoping someone has the part number for the bigger wheel motors currently used by Power Trac.

From Minnesota.

Thanks again for the help

 

[ponytug]

Given that history, I think that switching all four motors can't hurt, and is probably a smart move. To me, the fact that your motors seem to fail in a sequence would seem to lend some support for wear being the cause, rather than debris floating around the motor circuit.

Two questions about your local hydraulic shop;

• Have you asked what they might charge to rebuild your motors? (I'm just thinking that if the issue is seal wear, you might get a few seal changes before the axle gets too worn.
• Have you considered asking your hydraulic shop if they can flush the tram / variable volume pump as well as the motor circuits while they have it? Might be money well spent.

All the best,

Peter

 

[2manyrocks]

KentT was the first guy I remember reading about here to upgrade his PT425 OEM wheel motors to larger displacement ones from Surplus Center. You might be able to figure out which ones he used and then cross reference to some generic wheel motors from there?

I think he did quite a bit of detailed research. Probably the most extensive knowledge about the PT425 to be found.

Upgrading Wheel Motors

I'm about to upgrade my White 14.2ci wheel motors with White 21.2ci (or bigger) motors. Any way to easily figure out the speed changes? The current motors are very fast. I'd guess 10 MPH. The tractor is faster than my 1845 and I have larger than normal tires on that tractor. I'd rather have...

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[MossRoad]

KentT was the first guy I remember reading about here to upgrade his PT425 OEM wheel motors to larger displacement ones from Surplus Center. You might be able to figure out which ones he used and then cross reference to some generic wheel motors from there?

I think he did quite a bit of detailed research. Probably the most extensive knowledge about the PT425 to be found.

Upgrading Wheel Motors

I'm about to upgrade my White 14.2ci wheel motors with White 21.2ci (or bigger) motors. Any way to easily figure out the speed changes? The current motors are very fast. I'd guess 10 MPH. The tractor is faster than my 1845 and I have larger than normal tires on that tractor. I'd rather have...

www.tractorbynet.com

Here's a thread where KentT talked about that. Link to surplus center is "no results" but he gives some specs to get started.

PT-425's new home and new configuration...

Since my long-range plans have taken a 180 due to a divorce, I'm selling off my planned building tract in TN, and have just closed on a foreclosed "farm" of 15 overgrown acres on steep TN hillsides. The current plan is to be moved in by the end of June, and telecommute for the last couple of...

www.tractorbynet.com

He ordered PT1430 wheel boxes from PT and maybe modified to fit.

 

[MossRoad]

Can't find anymore about it right now, but here's a classic where his 425 burned to the ground and he got a deal on a 1430.

When one door closes, another opens....

I was tilling up the harvested parts of my garden late Saturday evening, and stopped to clean weeds/grass out of the tines. When I tried to restart the old, modified (MossRoad vintage) PT-425 with almost 1400 hours on it - it backfired and caught on fire. While I can't pinpoint the cause of...

www.tractorbynet.com

I miss that guy.

 

[MossRoad]

In the burn pictures, you can see the wheel boxes he added. Not only did it allow him to use the larger wheel motors, it pushed the wheels out quite a bit for more stability.

 

[MossRoad]

More KentT info on wheel motors

Upgrading Wheel Motors

I'm about to upgrade my White 14.2ci wheel motors with White 21.2ci (or bigger) motors. Any way to easily figure out the speed changes? The current motors are very fast. I'd guess 10 MPH. The tractor is faster than my 1845 and I have larger than normal tires on that tractor. I'd rather have...

www.tractorbynet.com