Which Mahindra would be the best comparison to Kioti RX7320 Cab? (and funny story)

[WesternMN]

I've been tractor shopping for a while and finally zeroed in on a barely used (30 hours) 2014 Kioti RX7320 with loader, cab and power shuttle transmission. I'm wondering which Mahindra would be the best comparison machine to the RX7320?

Here's the funny story part that got me thinking about Mahindra:

As luck would have it, today at work a Mahindra rep stopped in to see if we were interested in taking on the Mahindra tractor line (we are not currently a tractor dealer). As we talked a bit more, I told him that I was just about to close a deal on a Kioti RX7320 and he said he thought I may regret it down the road since the Kioti uses DPF/Regen cycles to meet tier 4 emissions and that resale value on the Kioti would really suffer because of it.

He explained that Mahindra doesn't need a DPF or DEF tank to meet emissions standards. I wasn't aware of that and, assuming that they aren't using some other expensive and potentially problematic technology to meet emissions standards, agree that could be a tremendous selling point. I'm still planning on buying the Kioti but now I'm curious, which Mahindra would be the best comparison to the RX7320 loader/cab/power shuttle? Any approximate pricing on the Mahindra?

 

[Snowback]

Would it be the M Power 75 that compares? mPower 75 | Mahindra They are pretty impressive tractors. That RX 7320 is a beast as well and with those low hours it is still a new tractor. Lots of happy Kioti owners and they are more than capable.

For what it's worth I stayed with Mahindra on my last purchase largely because of their recent major investment in emissions technology and no DPF in their Tier IV final CUT lineup.
Introducing our Tier IV "mCRD Technology" | Mahindra

I don't know that the DPFs have proven to be problematic yet. Mahindra is selling that "non-DPF" fact hard and it makes sense at first blush. A few folks with different brands do seem to be catching error messages and limp modes while in the middle of,or between regens, but those could be for many different reasons now that the engines have so many electronic controls. Time will tell and we'll get good feedback here watching the threads. For me, I just don't like having to run wide open all the time, and thus an engine without a DPF was attractive so I could simply putt around leisurely from time to time.

Good luck!

 

[Btown]

Would it be the M Power 75 that compares? mPower 75 | Mahindra They are pretty impressive tractors. That RX 7320 is a beast as well and with those low hours it is still a new tractor. Lots of happy Kioti owners and they are more than capable. For what it's worth I stayed with Mahindra on my last purchase largely because of their recent major investment in emissions technology and no DPF in their Tier IV final CUT lineup. Introducing our Tier IV "mCRD Technology" | Mahindra I don't know that the DPFs have proven to be problematic yet. Mahindra is selling that "non-DPF" fact hard and it makes sense at first blush. A few folks with different brands do seem to be catching error messages and limp modes while in the middle of,or between regens, but those could be for many different reasons now that the engines have so many electronic controls. Time will tell and we'll get good feedback here watching the threads. For me, I just don't like having to run wide open all the time, and thus an engine without a DPF was attractive so I could simply putt around leisurely from time to time. Good luck!

I believe what you think is quite opposite. On the Mahindra with DOC you need to run it wide open or there will be issues. The DPF route will just need to regen a little sooner then normal. There are issues with DOC designs also. Like I have said on other threads. They both have positive and negatives. Which will be better? Only time will tell.

 

[Turbys_1700]

The mPower 75 is a very nice unit. My dealer carries Mahindra in addition to New Holland and Kubota. He really likes the 75. Very good value. Concerning DPF and regen engines New Holland utilizes a catalytic converter on its Workmaster line of tractors. I just purchased a 50 and it has performed flawlessly thus far. I did not want to mess with Urea and regen cycles. So far so good. I do think resale value and demand will be greater for tier 4B final engines. Catalytic converter technology seems to be a simpler solution to the problem. JMHO.

 

[Snowback]

On the Mahindra with DOC you need to run it wide open or there will be issues.

With all due respect, I feel that statement is very bold. Please help me learn here in a civil debate, and if you could please provide some sources for your observation it would be helpful.

DOCs are flow through devices, not a physical filter media that trap particulate matter as in a DPF. If a DOC engine runs at a lower RPM, it simply becomes a little less efficient at cleansing the emission stream. From this article: "DOCs are maintenance free and designed to last the life of the engine, as long as you use ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel." - See more at: DPFs and DOCs: The new components at the heart of your Tier 4 engine | Equipment World | Construction Equipment, News and Information | Heavy Construction Equipment

Certainly one can search the internet and find many pictures of clogged cats, (typically on gasoline fired engines). From what I can tell these usually result from oil or antifreeze contamination, use of improper fuels or oils, or possibly even physical damage to the unit. As long as you use LSD and proper enginer oil in your DOC equipped engine, and also perform proper maintenance, I personally feel that you can run it like grandpa's tractor. The DOC light-off temperature is met at even a low throttle setting, and thus conversion is continually happening. I will yield to you that the DOC becomes even more efficient at converting the contaminants at higher RPM and temperature which is a nice thing as well. This happens frequently for me while mowing or doing ground engaging work.

I also agree with you that time will tell how problematic the DPF or possibly DOC systems will be. I think that the DPF systems will likely improve with time as the whole system is engineered to work together from start to finish. Many of the current DPF equipped product manufacturers simply bolted on the DPF and retuned the engine with electronic controls. No doubt that was a thorough process, but companies like Mahindra and New Holland along with others spent a load of money to re-engineer the whole process and produce a new line of engines to address the challenge. Kubota is even producing DOC only designs as well for some of their applications: Kubota Expands With DOC-Only Options - Diesel Progress - July 214

I do hope the DOCs hold up, and I also hope that the current crop of DPF/regen machines are trouble free too. In a few years this will all be clear to us, and by then Federal mandates will ensure that we are all driving electric tractors anyways... Take care!

 

[Btown]

With all due respect, I feel that statement is very bold. Please help me learn here in a civil debate, and if you could please provide some sources for your observation it would be helpful. DOCs are flow through devices, not a physical filter media that trap particulate matter as in a DPF. If a DOC engine runs at a lower RPM, it simply becomes a little less efficient at cleansing the emission stream. From this article: "DOCs are maintenance free and designed to last the life of the engine, as long as you use ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel." - See more at: DPFs and DOCs: The new components at the heart of your Tier 4 engine | Equipment World | Construction Equipment, News and Information | Heavy Construction Equipment Certainly one can search the internet and find many pictures of clogged cats, (typically on gasoline fired engines). From what I can tell these usually result from oil or antifreeze contamination, use of improper fuels or oils, or possibly even physical damage to the unit. As long as you use LSD and proper enginer oil in your DOC equipped engine, and also perform proper maintenance, I personally feel that you can run it like grandpa's tractor. The DOC light-off temperature is met at even a low throttle setting, and thus conversion is continually happening. I will yield to you that the DOC becomes even more efficient at converting the contaminants at higher RPM and temperature which is a nice thing as well. This happens frequently for me while mowing or doing ground engaging work. I also agree with you that time will tell how problematic the DPF or possibly DOC systems will be. I think that the DPF systems will likely improve with time as the whole system is engineered to work together from start to finish. Many of the current DPF equipped product manufacturers simply bolted on the DPF and retuned the engine with electronic controls. No doubt that was a thorough process, but companies like Mahindra and New Holland along with others spent a load of money to re-engineer the whole process and produce a new line of engines to address the challenge. Kubota is even producing DOC only designs as well for some of their applications: Kubota Expands With DOC-Only Options - Diesel Progress - July 214 I do hope the DOCs hold up, and I also hope that the current crop of DPF/regen machines are trouble free too. In a few years this will all be clear to us, and by then Federal mandates will ensure that we are all driving electric tractors anyways... Take care!

It's my understanding that a DOC while different than a catalytic converter works on the same principles. It needs heat to work well. A Diesel engine does not produce much heat, especially at low rpm's. A DPF will collect the soot and regen when it meets the criteria. If you were to run a DOC at low rpm it will clog and fail. Just like a DPF that is not allowed to do a regen. You are also more likely to have EGR issues with just a DOC. In order to get the NOX's gasses within the limit, they have to use a lot of the exhaust gas.Some Mahindras are having a big problem with the EGR valve. LS spent a lot of money to design and build their new engines, they just chose DPF. There are tractors with a combination of DOC/DPF. A DPF can also last as long or longer than the engine. All that has to be done is the soot ash has to be removed. Not sure what happens to the ash in a DOC. Life was good prior to final tier IV. I would rather smell the exhaust of a DOC or DPF engine than one without it. Diesel exhaust is awful.

 

[Turbys_1700]

It's my understanding that a DOC while different than a catalytic converter works on the same principles. It needs heat to work well. A Diesel engine does not produce much heat, especially at low rpm's. A DPF will collect the soot and regen when it meets the criteria. If you were to run a DOC at low rpm it will clog and fail. Just like a DPF that is not allowed to do a regen. You are also more likely to have EGR issues with just a DOC. In order to get the NOX's gasses within the limit, they have to use a lot of the exhaust gas.Some Mahindras are having a big problem with the EGR valve. LS spent a lot of money to design and build their new engines, they just chose DPF. There are tractors with a combination of DOC/DPF. A DPF can also last as long or longer than the engine. All that has to be done is the soot ash has to be removed. Not sure what happens to the ash in a DOC. Life was good prior to final tier IV. I would rather smell the exhaust of a DOC or DPF engine than one without it. Diesel exhaust is awful.

I know several farmers around here with DPF regen tractors that have had issues with the regen cycles and they are not happy. Tractors have not been reliable and have spent too much down time in the shop for repairs. Like you Btown this Tier 4 stuff is going to take a while to figure out. My Workmaster only utilizes a catalytic converter but who knows how that will work out in 15 to 20 years? Right now it is great. One reason I went with the New Holland in that size was the catalytic converter with no DPF. I know truckers who have spend thousands of dollars repairing 3 and 4 year old interim Tier trucks that use regen technologies with DPF for various issues. I just hope this stuff works itself out quickly. I know one thing. My Ford 4610 SU is staying in the shed.

 

[Snowback]

If you were to run a DOC at low rpm it will clog and fail. Just like a DPF that is not allowed to do a regen. You are also more likely to have EGR issues with just a DOC. In order to get the NOX's gasses within the limit, they have to use a lot of the exhaust gas.Some Mahindras are having a big problem with the EGR valve. LS spent a lot of money to design and build their new engines, they just chose DPF. There are tractors with a combination of DOC/DPF. A DPF can also last as long or longer than the engine. All that has to be done is the soot ash has to be removed. Not sure what happens to the ash in a DOC.

I don't think that's the way it works. A DPF "filters", while a DOC "converts", right?. (Filter vs Flow through) A DOC does not function like a trapping DPF unless you drop mud or debris in the intake or do something way out of line with improper fuels, oil or contaminants in fuel, etc... So called diesel "soot" is not like campfire ash in that it is comprised of tiny particles at the molecular level. Since DOCs have honey comb "Flow through" substrates, they do not catch anything in them. They may be "less efficient/clean" at lower engine speeds, but even moderate engine speed produces sufficient heat for the DOC to light off and continually be converting the gasses and particles. As to the the EGR issues, they are not DOC related. I think you might be referring to the overcooling that was happening on the 35 series and perhaps some bigger 25s along with the occasional EGR failure? Those issues were identified as a slightly too large hose that needed an internal restrictor to reduce coolant flow and get temps up, and also some EGR valves had hairline cracks that would allow a touch of coolant into the system at temperature, and that would foul the EGR valve. We'd need one of the owners of those machines to verify.

Still a great discussion and I appreciate your insight and thoughts Btown. If there is actual evidence or proof that DOCs are plugging like DPFs, then I would be very interested in learning about those cases. I think both are great systems, it's just that they each have pros and cons. Also agree with you 100% that DPFs will likely last longer than the tractor if maintained and used properly. I think the main thing we aggre to disagree on here is whether or not DOC only machines can be run leisurely or not. We both agree that DPF machines need to be run WOT to minimize regens and premature DPF clogging/regens. Perhaps I am wrong, and a clogged DOC could occur if lugged around excessively - I need to learn about that sooner than later if it's the case. As of now there is no empirical evidence that I have seen, nor technical reason that I am aware of, to believe that will be there will be a problem. I'll try to reach out to Mahindra as well on this one.

Maybe we can carry the discussion over to the Tier IV thread for record keeping and to help others out who have questions or input on the matter? http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/315068-tier-4-a.html

Take Care!

 

[Btown]

I don't think that's the way it works. A DPF "filters", while a DOC "converts", right?. (Filter vs Flow through) A DOC does not function like a trapping DPF unless you drop mud or debris in the intake or do something way out of line with improper fuels, oil or contaminants in fuel, etc... So called diesel "soot" is not like campfire ash in that it is comprised of tiny particles at the molecular level. Since DOCs have honey comb "Flow through" substrates, they do not catch anything in them. They may be "less efficient/clean" at lower engine speeds, but even moderate engine speed produces sufficient heat for the DOC to light off and continually be converting the gasses and particles. As to the the EGR issues, they are not DOC related. I think you might be referring to the overcooling that was happening on the 35 series and perhaps some bigger 25s along with the occasional EGR failure? Those issues were identified as a slightly too large hose that needed an internal restrictor to reduce coolant flow and get temps up, and also some EGR valves had hairline cracks that would allow a touch of coolant into the system at temperature, and that would foul the EGR valve. We'd need one of the owners of those machines to verify. Still a great discussion and I appreciate your insight and thoughts Btown. If there is actual evidence or proof that DOCs are plugging like DPFs, then I would be very interested in learning about those cases. I think both are great systems, it's just that they each have pros and cons. Also agree with you 100% that DPFs will likely last longer than the tractor if maintained and used properly. I think the main thing we aggre to disagree on here is whether or not DOC only machines can be run leisurely or not. We both agree that DPF machines need to be run WOT to minimize regens and premature DPF clogging/regens. Perhaps I am wrong, and a clogged DOC could occur if lugged around excessively - I need to learn about that sooner than later if it's the case. As of now there is no empirical evidence that I have seen, nor technical reason that I am aware of, to believe that will be there will be a problem. I'll try to reach out to Mahindra as well on this one. Maybe we can carry the discussion over to the Tier IV thread for record keeping and to help others out who have questions or input on the matter? http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/315068-tier-4-a.html Take Care!

There seems to be some that clog. http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/0...ged-doc.html#/forumsite/20661/topics/1925266?

DPF/DOC issues | TruckersReport.com Trucking Forum | #1 CDL Truck Driver Message Board

page=1

 

[grm61]

I don't think that's the way it works. A DPF "filters", while a DOC "converts", right?. (Filter vs Flow through) A DOC does not function like a trapping DPF unless you drop mud or debris in the intake or do something way out of line with improper fuels, oil or contaminants in fuel, etc... So called diesel "soot" is not like campfire ash in that it is comprised of tiny particles at the molecular level. Since DOCs have honey comb "Flow through" substrates, they do not catch anything in them. They may be "less efficient/clean" at lower engine speeds, but even moderate engine speed produces sufficient heat for the DOC to light off and continually be converting the gasses and particles. As to the the EGR issues, they are not DOC related. I think you might be referring to the overcooling that was happening on the 35 series and perhaps some bigger 25s along with the occasional EGR failure? Those issues were identified as a slightly too large hose that needed an internal restrictor to reduce coolant flow and get temps up, and also some EGR valves had hairline cracks that would allow a touch of coolant into the system at temperature, and that would foul the EGR valve. We'd need one of the owners of those machines to verify.

Still a great discussion and I appreciate your insight and thoughts Btown. If there is actual evidence or proof that DOCs are plugging like DPFs, then I would be very interested in learning about those cases. I think both are great systems, it's just that they each have pros and cons. Also agree with you 100% that DPFs will likely last longer than the tractor if maintained and used properly. I think the main thing we aggre to disagree on here is whether or not DOC only machines can be run leisurely or not. We both agree that DPF machines need to be run WOT to minimize regens and premature DPF clogging/regens. Perhaps I am wrong, and a clogged DOC could occur if lugged around excessively - I need to learn about that sooner than later if it's the case. As of now there is no empirical evidence that I have seen, nor technical reason that I am aware of, to believe that will be there will be a problem. I'll try to reach out to Mahindra as well on this one.

Maybe we can carry the discussion over to the Tier IV thread for record keeping and to help others out who have questions or input on the matter? http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/315068-tier-4-a.html

Take Care!

I don't know... I am not an engineer, as a laymen reading about Mahindras doc system they said from my understanding, may be it right or wrong, that they achieved their goals from extensive egr

I don't know what the greater evil is DPF, or DOC with EGR pumping all that crap back though your motor.

Out 0f all the things I don't know. I know I am glad I have mechanical injection and governer...a throttle cable and a muffler...that and that and the rest of the tractor,I can figure out on my own