Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

[varmint]

Ah- the hybrid topic... one I have a tad of experience with. We first bought a Honda Civic hybrid in 2002, sold it in 2012 when we got a Toyota Plug In Prius. No sales tax on either vehicle, and various tax credits made their purchase prices competitive. I think we averaged 53 mpg overall with the Honda. Zero issues, beyond regular maintenance. Sold it on Craig's list to a guy from the Wisconsin who had/has a long commute and was tired of his fuel costs. He flew here to Maryland, drove it home. (I should add that the car was in great shape, and I had taken 35 photos and sent him scanned records) I heard from him a year later- he loved it, no problems. The Prius, used for my wife's 9 mile commute and any trips we take, gets about 120+ mpg when kept local, using gas/plug in electric, and will give us well over 50mpg when used on long trips. And, we don't drive it at 55... whatever interstate traffic is moving at is typically our speed, too. My point is, IMHO, this technology works, and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Sure, there are sometimes generous tax credits, but that's the American (and European, to be fair) way with most industries and services. I would love a Tesla, but until there are charging stations everywhere, they don't work for us. BMW's new electric car sounds great, too, for appropriate travel.

 

[Capricious]

"...The Prius, used for my wife's 9 mile commute ..."


I commute 10 miles.

Today, and the last (2) days, I've done it by bicycle (40 bucks from a thrift store, plus lights & racks).



I have been tracking #2 prices since 2001. I have a 29 tab spreadsheet that I have been filling out since then.
On 01/02/2001 a particular #2 price i track was $0.8300

Yesterday, it was $2.9150 (it has been higher; $4.040 in July 2008)

I don't track gasoline prices but in poking around the internet, what i am seeing is that pump gasoline prices have increased at a slower rate than that.

With more and more people deciding that they just gotta have a diesel, I don't see any reason that the rate of increase will not be greater in the future, unless something drastic happens, such as natural gas becoming widely available in the northeast. Eliminating the heating oil demand in the northeast would drop #2 prices. Or one heck of a recession/depression, which would drop industrial/commercial demand for diesel.


Further reading:

Why diesel costs more - Gasbuddy Gas Prices

 

[Capricious]

"...Zero issues, beyond regular maintenance..."


Apparently others have had different experiences:

Consumer Reports Blasts Honda Civic Hybrid Reliability » AutoGuide.com News



It apparently worked out well for you.

But I think I'll stick to the oldest technology that I can get. I think that will present me with the fewest issues in the long run.

The K.I.S.S. priciple, if you will.

 

[buickanddeere]

You guys keep talking cost differential but what you are really talking is price differential. Back in the 80's GM and Ford had workhorse V6s (3800 and 3.0L respectively) that were cheap and good motors. They cost about $700 each. Those pushrod motors have been set aside for the overhead cam, multiple valve type engines that cost $2200 or so. Things like high pressure gas injection and other newer features have pushed that cost up to $3000. The bottom line is that there used to be a major cost differential between a high pressure injection diesel and a pushrod gas engine. but that differential has decreased dramatically. There is maybe a $1k cost differential. Note that I am talking about the variable cost to build an engine - not including all the overhead, development, etc.

The numbers that keep getting thrown around here are pricing differences. There really is not that much anymore.

The price difference for the new all aluminum overhead cam DI engines . Is made up with the improvement in fuel efficiency.
Check the efficiency of the DI gassers per btu of fuel than a Tier IV diesel per btu of fuel .

 

[buickanddeere]

When i was a kid (several decades ago) diesel fuel was about 1/2 the cost of gasoline.

Now, diesel usually costs more than gasoline. Why? decause demand for diesel is rising faster than the demand for gasoline. Remember when Ford tandem axle dumps had 534's? Now, even 1/2 ton pickups are being fitted with diesels.

And, within limits, refineries cannot really the change the quantities of how much diesel and how much gasoline they extract from a barrel of crude. So, they cannot make more diesel and less gasoline to suit the whims of the marketplace.

Diesel fuel will increasing cost more than gasoline as the demand rises even further. At some point in the future, diesel will be twice the cost of gasoline. It's a simple matter of supply and demand.

I would own a diesel if i HAD to have it for towing/hauling large loads ALL the time. For an occasional heavy load, and for everyday driving, I'll stick with gasoline.

No diesel cars for me.

I worked at the Petro Canada refinery at Southdown Rd in Mississauga . They were set up to take the odds , ends and cast offs from the other refineries. At a cost , they could make anything out of anything. Products ranged from grease, motor oil, lube oil , diesel, gasoline and high octane unleaded up to 116 octane in the Hydrobon reformer. The isotherms would make 87 octane gasoline out of just about anything that would pour and burn.

 

[buickanddeere]

I disagree. While a diesel generally will make more torque for a given displacement, It usually will make less power, for the same size. The gas engine has the drawback uf needing to be revved to it's power range.

The same displacement gasser vs a diesel with the same port flow and cam timing . The gasser Will make the same or more low end torque and power than the diesel.
It's all because of the very short cam timing and low overlap a diesel requires . To have enough cylinder pressure and therefore combustion chamber temperature to start when cranked over.
The nearest to a high rpm diesel is the VM unit built by Fiat and used in the 1/2 ton Ram, Jeep, Chev Cruze and 2016 mid size pickups. The engine is built with a four valve over head cam engine with variable cam timing.

 

[varmint]

Capricious, it did work well for us, and I personally know of no one else who had any problems, but ours was a 2003 model... The technology isn't that advanced, so problems should be more detail or quality control issues. Our only issues were stuff like the fuel filler door cable snapping, 12V battery needing replacement- stuff you'd find on any vehicle. Curiously, after we'd had the car for 5 or 6 years, when it was in the dealers for a recall (reprogramming) I was speaking with the parts manager about battery pak issues, and he said that their dealership chain had only had one issue, covered under warrantee, of course, for what was a defective pak, fairly new. Go figure.

 

[XMS]

I think we overlook culture.

My wife and I were set on a BMW 335d Diesel about three years ago. It made sense for a lot of reasons, and it was fast. Economy was going to be great with our rural driving - highway speeds and few to no lights. Cost was not any more than the gas version of the same car.

So why didn't we pull that trigger?

We drove the 335i gasoline version. Where the diesel was fast and powerful, the gasoline version was fast, powerful and responsive. It feels like a race car. Tiny touches to the pedal result in immediate changes on the road. The diesel took a few milliseconds longer, and for the same money the wife wanted the "peppier" car (it's her car - I got the old SUV and pickup).

So I think the answer is not necessarily the big bad gubbermint. I think Americans are uniquely in love with their cars (and trucks), and we are one of the only societies I have been blessed to meet, where we will more than not appreciate a fast, responsive car. Europeans and Asians are vastly more practical on these matters - a car goes from A to B. But then again, they don't have to drive as far as we do. We have more road, and a cultural heritage of using it. Anybody ever seen a Euro or Japanese film based on "The Long Road to Anywhere But Here"? It would be a short movie. Here we not only have the movies, but they are an entire genre in their own right.

Give me a diesel truck or an SUV, though. BMW does not sell the 3-series SUV in diesel in the USA, even though it is manufactured in North Carolina. They ship them all overseas. I asked why, and some of the dealers said it was pure market. They made more money on the gas version than they would on a presumably-popular diesel option. They told me that they all figure if someone in their class came out with a competitor running diesel, then BMW would start offering it.

 

[buickanddeere]

Why are diesels popular around the world except in the US ? It's the price of fuel.
Last March in Greece the pump price was 1.399 Euro for road diesel. 87 octane gasoline was $1.679 Euro. Premium gasoline was 1.899 Euo.
That figures out to $103.05 for a 15 gallon diesel fill up vs a $123.71 gasoline fillup . The vehicles were 30+mpg Econ boxes.
$20.66 US difference to fill an otherwise identical vehicle .
Yup guess why diesel vehicles are popular where gasoline is 120% of the price of diesel ?
Imagine your jacked up crew cab dually pickup with the mud mother knobby tires as your single person 75 mile a day transportation?

 

[SPYDERLK]

Diesels put out more power per displaced volume and therefore it was a good way to power small cars and stay away from the taxes. have you ever wondered why there were so many 1.9L European engines.

the statement was "more useful power on less fuel"

never stated "they make more power, size for size, or pound for pound" .... they are physically bigger and heavier due to construction , only the "displacement" is smaller :thumbsup:


HP wise they are "down on power" ... torque wise they are higher ( allows wider ranges for round town and highway cruise gearing )... easier pull away from stop signs without bogging /stalling .... smooth brisk acceleration ( not snap your neck when you hit the power band )....

and the displacement is always 1 or 2 CC less than the number specified 1598 for 1600 ... 1898 for 1900 ... just to make sure the engines are under the next higher bracket for being punished for having fun ...

but we must admit , both engines are a vast improvement over the engines of decades ago ... both are extremely durable, low maintenance beasts ....

my only beef is the title (expensive cars and trucks) golfs / jettas are not that much more expensive than a NA car

and Ram diesel trucks are right up there with the Cummings engine ..... ... great motors ...

Darkblack was responding to the post by Creamer