Marines Going to Hollow Point Bullets

[the old grind]

Probably don't want to confuse conventional HP with OTM (open tip match) if that's what the military is going to. .45 ACP (OSSs in the mid-60%) built its reputation in a military world of FMJ-exclusive action per the Hague convention, and in civilian use HG HPs have leveled the playing field.

What's OTM? The open tip is to have a sealed jacket base for boat-tails and the tip isn't very 'open' on close inspection. (semantics, but these don't rely on obturation as lead FBs etc would.) OTMs have a hollow nose cavity and thinner jackets than FMJs, and they will shatter or yaw inside target material vs the deeper penetration or pass thru' of 9mm hardball, SS109, etc.

45 loads typically carry 2-3X more energy at the muzzle than a 9mm load.

Whaa? .45 ACP, .45 Colt (or LC), and .44 Spl are virtual ballistic twins as far as typical pill weights and velocities, sub-sonic btw. In a strictly FMJ arena the greater frontal area will enhance stopping power over a smaller caliber, deeper penetrating one such as 9mm.

That goes out the window if a jacket disrupts or a bullet yaws, something that's to be expected with thin jackets and a rearward weight bias of match-type ammo. One can argue that an OTM is FMJ due to the lack of exposed lead, and argue against calling it a HP because the open tip is a pinhole among pinholes. Typical PD 'wide' HPs are poor at penetrating body armor and IMO the pointy ogive of an OTM is more likely to do so. I'd like to be sure the terms aren't muddled any more than my feeble explanation, and that we're sure we understand the breadth of these terms.

Nam vets I know say the least caliber they'd like to be struck by (other than .45 ACP at close range) is 5.45x39mm with its 'knitting needle' bullet shape/profile. With the FMJ's hollow nose cavity it yaws at minimal depth and creates an ugly wound channel. I suspect OTMs would do the same if that's what the military is considering.

 

[texasjohn]

OK...so the 223 rounds I purchased are actually OTM since the opening is barely the size of a pin. However, I should expect the round to shatter and yaw upon entry or soon after. Dead coyote, hog or deer any way you look at it since I always go for bullet placement ...in head or neck area. I haven't tried them yet....shortage of targets since all I have shot with 223 so far have succombed to one round each...three coyotes, two axis, one hog... just started using it as my hunting gun of choice. I was initially concerned about it's stopping power...not any more.

So, is the military using OTM or hollow points??

 

[bigtiller]

I thought hollow points were not allowed with the NATO agreement.

 

[dmccarty]

That's very interesting. I had heard at one time, that all of the Special Operation units in our military used the .45 auto, because of it's superiority to the 9mm, although I can't confirm it's veracity. The 9mm has long been known to be inferior to the .45 (e.g., the Miami Shootout, where it was blamed for the death of a couple of FBI agents), and according to the S&W forum, the 10mm was developed in response. The 10mm proved to be too much of a beast for the limp-of-wrist and female agents, so the .40 S&W was developed, dropping the 10mm entirely. I'm a bit surprised that they are now going to hollow points. That opens up a whole new ball game of man-killer ammo that's available and under development.

I think Jeff Cooper had something to do with the development of the 10mm in the early 1980's with the Bren 10 which was before the FBI shootout. I have fired a full power 10mm in one of the FBI 1076 pistols and recoil is an issue. A fully loaded 10mm is in the lower part of the 44 mag power range if I remember right. :shocked: The problem with powerful loads like that is that doing double taps is really impossible for most people because the recoil is too severe. The FBI created a lower powered 10mm round which was called the 10mm Lite to deal with the recoil issue. The problem with the 10mm Lite was that there was empty space in the case. If you cut down the 10mm case to hold the volume of powder you get a 40mm S&W....

The issue the FBI had with the Miami Shootout is that their team went up against two really bad, evil thugs. I would use a different word but this is a family forum. :laughing: The two thugs had executed a couple of armored car guards and shot and killed a few other innocent people just for fun. These two guys were not going down without a fight and fight they did. Both of them were shot dozens of times with buckshot, 9mm, and 38s. I think one guy was shot 40-50 times. The problem was that both men were dead men walking and that was the problem. They had multiple fatal wounds but they were still in the fight. Supposedly, even a shot that takes out the heart, still leaves a person enough blood pressure to stay awake and able to fight for 15-30 seconds. Even 10 seconds is a very long time in a firefight.

One of the thugs hit early in the firefight was hit with a 9mm Silvertip, which at the time, was considered one of the best performing bullets. The Silvertip hit one of the thugs in the heart sack and was a fatal wound BUT IT WAS NOT A STOPPING wound. The thug manged to walk around and shoot two downed agents, killed at least one of them, and he tried to kill another wounded agent but missed after firing point plank. The agent had lost the use of one arm but was able to rack a pump gun and empty it into the thug after said thug got into a car and tried to drive away. The wounded agent then advanced firing and emptying his 38 into the thug at close distance which finally ended the fire fight.

The shootout was a cluster. One agent did not help his other agents under fire. Some mistakes were made that were understandable, and could happen to anyone, but given the circumstances they were not good. No fault on the agents just one of those aw scat things. The FBI did not have the ability to communicate with local law enforcement who when dispatched to the scene correctly acted very cautiously because they did not know what was happening. I have heard a recording of a resident calling the situation into 911, and it WAS a war zone. The agents did not have automatic weapons, the bad guys had at least semi autos, and it sounded like a war zone. How innocent people did not get hurt is a miracle.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Interesting. I read somewhere that the Springfield development was accelerated as a result of the experience of Teddy Roosevelt and the Rough Riders. The were met with the latest Mauser rifles, which proved to be superior to what ever they were carrying; the 30/40 Kraig I believe.
...

Laguarde's book discusses the Spanish War experience with the sub caliper Mausers whose bullets just did much less damage to a person than the other rounds. Course, the flatter trajectory of the sub caliper rounds made it much more likely to hit someone than the older rounds that needed a higher trajectory at longer ranges. I remember seeing a graph, I think it was of the 45/70, that out to some range that I can't remember, had the zones were a person would be hit around the aiming point. The zone was very small around the aim point and if a six foot tall man was standing halfway between the shooter and target, the bullet would go over his head. The flatter shooting sub calipers had a hit zone that was huge in comparison and the Mauser could fire at a much higher rate than a single shot 45/70. Having said that.....

When I used to compete in service rifle matches, one of the best shooters showed up with an old 45/70 Trapdoor one day. :shocked: He had just bought the rifle and wanted to try it out. The match is four stages, two of which are rapid fire, I think it was 10 round standing to sitting in 60 seconds, and 10 rounds standing to prone in 70 seconds. That match was designed for M1 semi autos. This guy happened to be shooting next to me so I got to watch what happened. He did really well too. :shocked: For the slow fire stages he was not at a disadvantage, it was only the rapid fire stages he had a problem but he would stack rounds between his weak hand so he could rapidly chamber a new round. He managed to get off most of his rounds during rapid fire! :thumbsup: If he had practiced a bit, I think he could have fired all his rounds. :thumbsup: What was funny is that I could see the 45 bullets arching down range to the target! :laughing::laughing::laughing: I never say a "sub caliper" round arch down range.

Later,
Dan

 

[RDrancher]

Dan, funny you mentioned the 45 "arch." If I recall correctly, I believe it was in one of Hickok45's videos that either 45acp or Colt rounds can be seen doing the "arch" down range to his big gong.

Edit: It was the Colt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogSxqcwhkyk

 

[N80]

"The old rifle bullets were big and heavy, I think they were an ounce in size and were made of soft lead so when they hit a body part the caused quite a bit of damage. The also carried more dirt into the wound causing infections. The new sub calibers round did NOT cause as much damage as the older bullets because they were jacketed, did not expand on impact, and were smaller."

The amount of energy (E) transferred to the target by a bullet is 1/2 the mass x the velocity squared. Its the squared that makes the difference and it is the velocity that is squared.(Plug some of your own numbers in with various weights and velocities. Mass makes relatively little difference). With pistol cartridges at close range the velocity probably makes a lot less difference so mass becomes important. In rifle cartridges velocity is everything. And while the wounds of big slow bullets can look bad, the visible damage is pretty much all the damage there is. It is like a spear injury. A fast, jacketed bullet may pass through the target and carry some of its energy with it, unlike a hunting bullet which opens and ideally stays in or barely passes through the target. But while the visible wound of a full metal jacket bullet that does not fragment or hit bone might look like a pass through arrow wound there is usually significant shock wave damage done to surrounding soft tissue that might not be readily apparent.

(I did my surgery research paper in med school on low velocity bullet wounds to the spine.)

I'm a bit of a dinosaur, and I know this has no military application, but I am, and always have been a 357 magnum fan. You get decent mass and decent velocity. The downside is, with few exceptions, you only get it in a revolver.......which I also prefer.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Seems like kind of a moot point if you have seen .223 FMJ wound ballistics. I can't believe that by 2015 they are still using brass casings and that caseless ammo hasn't become mainstream.

 

[MossRoad]

I think Jeff Cooper had something to do with the development of the 10mm in the early 1980's with the Bren 10 which was before the FBI shootout. I have fired a full power 10mm in one of the FBI 1076 pistols and recoil is an issue. A fully loaded 10mm is in the lower part of the 44 mag power range if I remember right. :shocked: The problem with powerful loads like that is that doing double taps is really impossible for most people because the recoil is too severe. The FBI created a lower powered 10mm round which was called the 10mm Lite to deal with the recoil issue. The problem with the 10mm Lite was that there was empty space in the case. If you cut down the 10mm case to hold the volume of powder you get a 40mm S&W....

The issue the FBI had with the Miami Shootout is that their team went up against two really bad, evil thugs. I would use a different word but this is a family forum. :laughing: The two thugs had executed a couple of armored car guards and shot and killed a few other innocent people just for fun. These two guys were not going down without a fight and fight they did. Both of them were shot dozens of times with buckshot, 9mm, and 38s. I think one guy was shot 40-50 times. The problem was that both men were dead men walking and that was the problem. They had multiple fatal wounds but they were still in the fight. Supposedly, even a shot that takes out the heart, still leaves a person enough blood pressure to stay awake and able to fight for 15-30 seconds. Even 10 seconds is a very long time in a firefight.

One of the thugs hit early in the firefight was hit with a 9mm Silvertip, which at the time, was considered one of the best performing bullets. The Silvertip hit one of the thugs in the heart sack and was a fatal wound BUT IT WAS NOT A STOPPING wound. The thug manged to walk around and shoot two downed agents, killed at least one of them, and he tried to kill another wounded agent but missed after firing point plank. The agent had lost the use of one arm but was able to rack a pump gun and empty it into the thug after said thug got into a car and tried to drive away. The wounded agent then advanced firing and emptying his 38 into the thug at close distance which finally ended the fire fight.

The shootout was a cluster. One agent did not help his other agents under fire. Some mistakes were made that were understandable, and could happen to anyone, but given the circumstances they were not good. No fault on the agents just one of those aw scat things. The FBI did not have the ability to communicate with local law enforcement who when dispatched to the scene correctly acted very cautiously because they did not know what was happening. I have heard a recording of a resident calling the situation into 911, and it WAS a war zone. The agents did not have automatic weapons, the bad guys had at least semi autos, and it sounded like a war zone. How innocent people did not get hurt is a miracle.

Later,
Dan

They did not kill any armored car guards. They did wound two on 2 separate days.
They did kill one target shooter and stole his car to use in other robberies.
They shot a second target shooter and stole his car on a different day. That target shooter survived.
In the Miami shootout, one of the criminals was shot 6 times and the other 12 times, not 40-50.

As for the 10mm, most agents (not just the ladies) couldn't handle the recoil.

Here's some more facts and history...
1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RSKY]

My original post came from StrategyPage.com and I put it here to see what the discussion would bring up. I appreciated all the comments, keep them coming. Very interesting.

As a side note I highly recommend strategypage to be added to your bookmarks. The site is run by some military HISTORIANS. Both have several books out they are great for history buffs. They also have some of the best analyzes of current events from a military viewpoint that I have found.

Check them out.