Portable Generators

   / Portable Generators #11  
   / Portable Generators #12  
Be real carefull of those chinese cra*shoot units. During our last 5 day power outage, i went on 3 calls to look at issues with portable gens powering house panels. All 3 had professional installed transfer switches to lock out mains. The issue with all 3 was i would get 240 with meter hooked to the gens 30 amp outlets, but if you apply the house loads to generator suddenly id get voltages like 207 volts on one leg and 33 volts on other. Not really sure what causes this in generator, but they fried lots of tv, refers, freezers snd gas furnace fans.

All 3 were different off brands, and all three were chinese units. I heard from a local electronics shop that last year was his best year ever repairing circuit boards.....he loves power outages and portable gens.
 
   / Portable Generators #13  
Grsthegreat, you described the condition that I did. I'm embarrassed to say as a EEng working for a elect utility , I connected 2 wires of a 240 v gen and the ground and thought the neutral and ground would be the same. I fired up the gen and anctious to try it out, transferred load. The overhead light was strangely dim. And my fancy stereo power distributer blew up in another room. Fortunately, I didn't test long and found my error.
I would suggest that the 30 amp plug has no neutral in it and so the voltage splits between the current load of the two sides of the panel.. rarely balanced. Or wired wrong and no neutral used. By design, 240 v loads don't use neutral. But the generators put out 120 v so they have 120 v windings. Two windings in series make 240 volts. But for panel feed, you need to connect to the center point of two windings which is called the neutral. My ground was just the chassis / frame connection and not in the generator circuit, so to speak. I had an expensive lesson, but it could have been WAY worse!
 
   / Portable Generators #14  
Grsthegreat, you described the condition that I did. I'm embarrassed to say as a EEng working for a elect utility , I connected 2 wires of a 240 v gen and the ground and thought the neutral and ground would be the same. I fired up the gen and anctious to try it out, transferred load. The overhead light was strangely dim. And my fancy stereo power distributer blew up in another room. Fortunately, I didn't test long and found my error.
I would suggest that the 30 amp plug has no neutral in it and so the voltage splits between the current load of the two sides of the panel.. rarely balanced. Or wired wrong and no neutral used. By design, 240 v loads don't use neutral. But the generators put out 120 v so they have 120 v windings. Two windings in series make 240 volts. But for panel feed, you need to connect to the center point of two mwindings which is called the neutral. My ground was just the chassis / frame connection and not in the generator circuit, so to speak. I had an expensive lesson, but it could have been WAY worse!
Well i checked the plugs on all ends including the cords. All neutrals present. It had to be in the way the windings in the generator were tapped. I cant think of any other answer.
 
   / Portable Generators #15  
Be real carefull of those chinese cra*shoot units. During our last 5 day power outage, i went on 3 calls to look at issues with portable gens powering house panels. All 3 had professional installed transfer switches to lock out mains. The issue with all 3 was i would get 240 with meter hooked to the gens 30 amp outlets, but if you apply the house loads to generator suddenly id get voltages like 207 volts on one leg and 33 volts on other. Not really sure what causes this in generator, but they fried lots of tv, refers, freezers snd gas furnace fans.

All 3 were different off brands, and all three were chinese units. I heard from a local electronics shop that last year was his best year ever repairing circuit boards.....he loves power outages and portable gens.

You could just go around those houses and turn off loads on phase L1 or turn on loads on phase L2 until the load through each phase was equal (120V + 120V= 240V) :D

You service generators?
There's nothing magical about Chinese generators. So, what causes this:
Hint #1: The 207V in one leg and 33 volts in the other leg shows the generator is putting out (207V + 33V=) 240 Volts just like it's suppose to.
Hint #2: If you measured the voltage across the busses L1 & L2 (or the output of double pole breakers) in those panels, they would still read 240V. But, you measured the 207V between L1 and neutral (or maybe ground), and 33V between L2 and neutral....hmmm... getting closer....

Basically: If you think of the generator as having a 240V winding ( or 2- 120V windings connected in series), the center point of these windings has to be "neutral" (i.e. connected (locked down) to O volts, the earth,) Usually this means bonding the winding's center tap neutral connection with the ground, or using a 4 prong connection so that this neutral-ground bond, which also exists in the service panelboard, is used; so that the 240volts produced by the generator is forced to divide evenly (120V + 120V) across these two equal windings.
Without the neutral connection dividing the 240V equally and "locking in" 120V to neutral in each leg, the panelboard consists of all the turned on "120V" loads on panel phase L1 being connected in series with all the turned on phase L2 loads; and 240V being supplied to this circuit.

You have a "floating neutral" situation.

Here's a decent illustration that shows a broken neutral connection (in reality, there's many more loads in parallel with each other on phase L1, and many more loads parallel with each other on L2). Also imagine the generator's windings where they show "120V" or "240" source.
The important point is that without a neutral connection to the source locking in 120V in each leg and providing a return path for single phase currents (for 120V loads) to return to the opposite side of the 120V winding: there's 240V being split across the 10 watt light and the 120 watt tv that are now in series with each other without a neutral. The 240V will not divide evenly into 120V and 120V across the unbalanced loads.
float1.jpg
 
Last edited:
   / Portable Generators #16  
Well i checked the plugs on all ends including the cords. All neutrals present. It had to be in the way the windings in the generator were tapped. I cant think of any other answer.

Short answer: Bond the generator's neutral with the panel's.
 
   / Portable Generators #17  
Short answer: Bond the generator's neutral with the panel's.
tried it, no difference.
The problem is internal to the generator windings. I dont and wont service chinese crap. Ive torn into a few kohler and generac alternators and there quality pieces of equipment.

I service generators, but i dont rebuild engines and alternators. These generators are not required to be connected to outside ground rods(no portables are, and now no permenant generator is supposed to be separately grounded per NEC).
 
   / Portable Generators #18  
A single 240 volt winding would explain those symtoms. And true 240 v load, like England has, the gen would work just fine. Good thing to know before purchasing a portable for US system. You could make it work with a 240v center tapped transformer, but that require salvage prices to economically justify.
 
   / Portable Generators
  • Thread Starter
#19  
So Generac are decent generators? Even though they are NOT brushless generators?
 
   / Portable Generators #20  
So Generac are decent generators? Even though they are NOT brushless generators?

Generac's are vulnerable to Gasahol, carbs will corrode. I solved the problem by using Staybil 360 Marine additive. Mine (17.5 KW) has worked fine for 18 months now after making the fuel change. It has no adverse effect on our motors and electronic gear. Their guarantee states that the warranty is void if Gasahol is used. Their manual states you have to drain all fuel after each use. Holds 15 GL in the tank so you figure. I now never drain the fuel.

Ron

Ron
 
 
Top