hawkeye08
Elite Member
I would consider replacing battery cables also. they may have corrosion internally causing resistance which drops voltage...
Ford 4400 converted to Alt - burning up Solenoids - help
- Thread starter 4johns
- Start date
LD1
Epic Contributor
It's hard to actually find a good solenoid/relay anymore.
My snow plow setup uses a starter relay. Get a year or two then they are done. Always keep a spare with me.
My snow plow setup uses a starter relay. Get a year or two then they are done. Always keep a spare with me.
Dave M7040
Elite Member
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- Dec 10, 2012
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- Williamstown Ontario Canada
- Tractor
- Kubota M7040 Nuffield 465
I suggest that you need to recognize there are starter solenoids which look identical but are completely different inside.
I think the wiring diagrams you have or are being provided with are not conveying to you how the use of the wrong solenoid, while it may work in the short term, wont have a long life.
This must be happening in your case.
Some solenoids use the mounting lugs to create a ground for the internal coil which closes the main contacts.
Other solenoids have a low amp terminal whose purpose is to be where the ground for the internal coil is to go. These are often used when you have a neutral safety switch to prevent starting in gear. By preventing starting in gear using the ground side of the small coil, the safety switch or switches are at next to zero voltage and any chaffing etc will not cause a fire but, may allow the engine to crank.
If you have a riding lawnmower, most of the important things like the engine pto pulley to power the mower deck are controlling the pto pulley on the ground side of the circuit. 12 volt + is going to the pto pulley anytime the key is turned on. The ground side of the pto pulley will go through relays and safety switches to prevent the blade running during starting or if you fall off the seat. On some machines, there is a feature to shut off the blade when you go into reverse. All of this on the ground side.
If your ignition system does NOT have a ballast resistor, you don't need a solenoid with an "I" low amp terminal as its function is to bypass the ballast resistor during starting and then return the ballast resistor into the circuit supplying the coil.
Do you have a multimeter? If you do a few simple tests can clarify if you have the correct starter solenoid.
Do you know what a ballast resistor looks like? If yes, is there one on your tractor?
I will provide a series of photos of different functioning starter solenoids.
Looking forward to your response to some of my questions if you think I can help.
Dave M7040
I think the wiring diagrams you have or are being provided with are not conveying to you how the use of the wrong solenoid, while it may work in the short term, wont have a long life.
This must be happening in your case.
Some solenoids use the mounting lugs to create a ground for the internal coil which closes the main contacts.
Other solenoids have a low amp terminal whose purpose is to be where the ground for the internal coil is to go. These are often used when you have a neutral safety switch to prevent starting in gear. By preventing starting in gear using the ground side of the small coil, the safety switch or switches are at next to zero voltage and any chaffing etc will not cause a fire but, may allow the engine to crank.
If you have a riding lawnmower, most of the important things like the engine pto pulley to power the mower deck are controlling the pto pulley on the ground side of the circuit. 12 volt + is going to the pto pulley anytime the key is turned on. The ground side of the pto pulley will go through relays and safety switches to prevent the blade running during starting or if you fall off the seat. On some machines, there is a feature to shut off the blade when you go into reverse. All of this on the ground side.
If your ignition system does NOT have a ballast resistor, you don't need a solenoid with an "I" low amp terminal as its function is to bypass the ballast resistor during starting and then return the ballast resistor into the circuit supplying the coil.
Do you have a multimeter? If you do a few simple tests can clarify if you have the correct starter solenoid.
Do you know what a ballast resistor looks like? If yes, is there one on your tractor?
I will provide a series of photos of different functioning starter solenoids.
Looking forward to your response to some of my questions if you think I can help.
Dave M7040
Today I wired up this Ford 4400 per the diagram which Jerry sent me from his book. This diagram matched exactly to the 1-2-3 switch and everything else. The main negative and positive batt cables where in pretty good shape. All other wiring was new. I did not replace the starter, coil, or alternator at this point as I just want to get it running so I can get it to my shed to do more final cleanup and replace alt and starter later. I purchased a brand new starter relay (solenoid) from SouthernMachineParts on EBay. Says it's for a 4400 Ford Tractor. I had everything wired with just the positive cable disconnected. I touched the positive connector to the positive side of the battery and got a spark. Not good? I next got a test light and started disconnecting wires and checking the circuit. Again still getting a light. I removed the starter relay and with only the positive and negative cables from the battery to the big lugs with test light in-between and get a light??? Looks like brand new relay is bad? It should be open right?? I will get a new one and post back later... If not for bad luck, I would have no luck at all...
Dave M7040
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If you did this as it is written, you have possibly welded the contacts together " I removed the starter relay and with only the positive and negative cables from the battery to the big lugs."
The negative battery cable should be nowhere near the starter relay.
If you did not do this, then it is far too coincidental that a brand new relay has failed in addition to the one you thought was defective.
Something is not wired correctly. Was the relay mounting lug grounded?
How about some photos of the relay and wiring?
Dave M7040
Yes, I made a circuit connection from the positive and negative batt posts to the big lugs of the starter relay, but with a test light on the negative side, to see if the Starter relay was open or closed. The light came on, but I don't think it should. This should stay open until (with the relay completely wired) you turn the key switch, right? I picked up a new starter relay this evening. Will re-test tomorrow and provide picks if still having problems. Also, the starter relay is mounted to the tractor frame/body with standard two bolts. Standard stock mount situation. As far as not being wired correctly... I used colored wires for easy tracing and had an experienced mechanic check the wiring to the diagram Jerry sent me. He agreed it was wired correctly per the diagram. Will do more testing tomorrow...
Dave M7040
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4johns
Please accept I am not trying to be critical at all and want to help.
More and more designers are including diodes in their wiring around starter solenoids or relays to block high voltage pulses when the magnetic field around the solenoid's internal coil collapses.
Sometimes these diodes are external, sometimes internal. The solenoids you are buying could have internal electronic components to provide this damping of electrical pulses and thus may not be the simple light switch style you are picturing.
These electronic internal components could allow a small leakage of just enough current to light a test light and be confusing.
These are photos of external diodes:
The wiring Jerry provided does not address two questions in my mind. If you don't have an ignition ballast resistor, and you have not said either way, then using the "I" terminal on a starter relay is not necessary and further may confuse things.
Second, the wiring diagram does not tell you if the internal coil is grounded by the mounting lugs. Perhaps when the diagram was made such options were not around but they are now and can be most confusing.
If you are buying a new relay, then instead of installing it on the tractor, do a bench wiring using a convenient 12 volt battery. Instead of the starter on one of the big lugs, connect a light bulb.
If you can make the relay turn the bulb on and off, then proceed to install it. Don't connect anything to the "I" terminal and see if you can make the starter crank the engine. If it will do that reliably, then we can discuss how to power the coil.
If there are any electronic components inside the starter relay, it is very easy to destroy them by having a reverse polarity situation.
When you buy these relays are there any wiring diagrams in the package?
Dave M7040
Please accept I am not trying to be critical at all and want to help.
More and more designers are including diodes in their wiring around starter solenoids or relays to block high voltage pulses when the magnetic field around the solenoid's internal coil collapses.
Sometimes these diodes are external, sometimes internal. The solenoids you are buying could have internal electronic components to provide this damping of electrical pulses and thus may not be the simple light switch style you are picturing.
These electronic internal components could allow a small leakage of just enough current to light a test light and be confusing.
These are photos of external diodes:
The wiring Jerry provided does not address two questions in my mind. If you don't have an ignition ballast resistor, and you have not said either way, then using the "I" terminal on a starter relay is not necessary and further may confuse things.
Second, the wiring diagram does not tell you if the internal coil is grounded by the mounting lugs. Perhaps when the diagram was made such options were not around but they are now and can be most confusing.
If you are buying a new relay, then instead of installing it on the tractor, do a bench wiring using a convenient 12 volt battery. Instead of the starter on one of the big lugs, connect a light bulb.
If you can make the relay turn the bulb on and off, then proceed to install it. Don't connect anything to the "I" terminal and see if you can make the starter crank the engine. If it will do that reliably, then we can discuss how to power the coil.
If there are any electronic components inside the starter relay, it is very easy to destroy them by having a reverse polarity situation.
When you buy these relays are there any wiring diagrams in the package?
Dave M7040
aczlan
Good Morning
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- Kubota L3830GST, B7500HST, BX2660. Formerly: Case 480F LL, David Brown 880UE
I would need to see pictures I guess. Normally the negative cable doesn't go anywhere near the starter. It goes to the block or the frame.
Normally the starter relay has a big lug for positive in and a big lug for positive out to the starter and then a small plug for positive in and possibly a small plug for ground in.
If you have a large ground cable hooked to one big lug and a large positive cable to the other one, something probably isn't hooked up right.
Aaron Z
Normally the starter relay has a big lug for positive in and a big lug for positive out to the starter and then a small plug for positive in and possibly a small plug for ground in.
If you have a large ground cable hooked to one big lug and a large positive cable to the other one, something probably isn't hooked up right.
Aaron Z
I am using the term Negative in a relative way. Yes, my negative battery cable goes straight to one of the starter mounting bolts, to the engine block. Then their is a heavy gauge, like batt cable size, short wire going from the negative side of the starter relay (solenoid) to the side of the starter. So, technically, negative power to the starter relay post.
To be clear I am not testing the open or close condition on the starter relay between the bigger lugs directly to pos and neg terminals, but rather with a test light. Here is a simple explanation of my test... which I just did with the new starter relay I purchase last evening. I clipped my test light end to the pos side big lug on the starter relay. With relay in my hand I touched the neg big lug post of starter relay to neg post of batt. Then touch the test light to the pos post of batt. At this moment test light does not light up. Which I think is correct NO COMPLETED CIRCUIT AT THIS TIME. What I was saying in my earlier post from yesterday was that the new one I got from EBay, using this same test... the test light is ON. Not good I believe. Will be wiring in this new one later today and will report back.
As I suspected that starter relay I purchased from Ebay was apparently stuck in closed position closing the circuit which is what the key switch is supposed to do. I installed the new starter relay I purchased from O'Reilly's last evening, and with no other changes to the wiring (per Jerry's post) I got no spark when making the final connection with the positive battery cable to the battery. Jumped in the seat and she started right up. I do appreciate any and all comments and do not take anything for granted. I am just a shade tree mechanic. I do not claim to know more than anyone else (except my brother-in-law of course) I stopped and started the tractor like 5 times and the started and coil seem to be Ok. Now that I have it pulled up closer to my shed where I can work on it without walking to far, I will get some newer battery cables. Get a new alternator, tighten and clean everything up and move on to addressing some oil leaks... So far so good..... I Appreciate this forum.