Ford 4400 converted to Alt - burning up Solenoids - help

[4johns]

Brand new to forum(s) and forum Etiquette so don't bash on me too much. I am just a shade tree mechanic and tinkerer. About 10+ years ago I purchased this used 1971 Ford 4400 tractor, mostly to cut grass with a finish mower attachment. We did the usual new spark plugs, points, wires, etc. Basic stuff. We then figured out the generator wasn't charging the battery. So to save $$ we converted it to a GM one-wire alternator setup. We left the wiring harness in place and basically wired things per the drawing attached. At first, everything worked fine. Then after six months or so solenoid started sticking, smoking, etc. Tap with a hammer and she fires up. So I replaced the solenoid. I have had to replace the solenoid just about every year since. Something must not be wired right and causing the solenoid to stick? I have attached a basic drawing of how I have it wired up. Maybe someone can tell me what I need to do differently or what is wrong. Thanks.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Brand new to forum(s) and forum Etiquette so don't bash on me too much. I am just a shade tree mechanic and tinkerer. About 10+ years ago I purchased this used 1971 Ford 4400 tractor, mostly to cut grass with a finish mower attachment. We did the usual new spark plugs, points, wires, etc. Basic stuff. We then figured out the generator wasn't charging the battery. So to save $$ we converted it to a GM one-wire alternator setup. We left the wiring harness in place and basically wired things per the drawing attached. At first, everything worked fine. Then after six months or so solenoid started sticking, smoking, etc. Tap with a hammer and she fires up. So I replaced the solenoid. I have had to replace the solenoid just about every year since. Something must not be wired right and causing the solenoid to stick? I have attached a basic drawing of how I have it wired up. Maybe someone can tell me what I need to do differently or what is wrong. Thanks.


View attachment 516302

As drawn, I don't see how you actuate the starter at all.
You need a wire rom the battery to the starter switch and then a wire from the "START" lug of the ignition switch to the solenoid coil connection. There also needs to be a connection for your ignition primary circuit to both the "START" and "RUN" lugs of the ignition switch.

Was you generator system 6v or 12V? If you went from a 6V system to a 12v system, you need to make sure that your solenoid is designed for 12 V otherwise the coil current at 12v will be about twice what it is at 6V.

 

[4johns]

This 4400 industrial tractor was 12v when I got it at which time it had the generator in it. The coil says 12v on it. None of the gauges worked and a volt meter to the battery while it was running told me it was not being charged. Besides that I had to put the battery on a charger to get it started. Since none of the gauges were working and the wiring harness was somewhat crumby and brittle etc., we did the conversion on the diagram and it started and charged and ran fine for years except for the annual solenoid problem/replacement. This last time with the solenoid sticking or not starting episode, when it did start the starter continued to run and made a horrible noise, then I could not get it to turn off with the key. I had to jump off the tractor and pull off the neg. battery cable to get it to shutdown. So I was so frustrated at this point I just parked it there. When I went back to draw out this diagram I decided to pull everything out including the original wiring harness which was a mess with brittle and broken wire etc. I can definitely say the were multiple wires going to the back of the starter switch, but I was pretty sure only the one being used... I could have missed something here... I can also definitely positively say there were only the three connections to the battery. Negative grounded at the starter. Positive to the solenoid and the single wire from the alternator going to the + side of battery. I can only guess that maybe the wire going from the solenoid to the starter switch (via the original harness) maybe connected to another wire within the original wire harness. At this point I completely removed all the wiring and old harness and want to re-wire with all new wiring. Based on what you have said, it sounds like its not going to start as I am missing something. You say I will need to add the following;

A wire from the + side of battery to the start switch.
A wire from the "START" lug of the start switch to the solenoid coil connection. I assume this would be the "I" post on the solenoid?
A wire from both the "START" and "RUN" lugs on the start switch to the ignition primary circuit? (Not sure here where your referring to?)

It sounds like you know what your talking about and I would be extremely appreciative if you could clarify the extra wires I need to add to this diagram to get running again. Thanks much.

 

[Jerry/MT]

This 4400 industrial tractor was 12v when I got it at which time it had the generator in it. The coil says 12v on it. None of the gauges worked and a volt meter to the battery while it was running told me it was not being charged. Besides that I had to put the battery on a charger to get it started. Since none of the gauges were working and the wiring harness was somewhat crumby and brittle etc., we did the conversion on the diagram and it started and charged and ran fine for years except for the annual solenoid problem/replacement. This last time with the solenoid sticking or not starting episode, when it did start the starter continued to run and made a horrible noise, then I could not get it to turn off with the key. I had to jump off the tractor and pull off the neg. battery cable to get it to shutdown. So I was so frustrated at this point I just parked it there. When I went back to draw out this diagram I decided to pull everything out including the original wiring harness which was a mess with brittle and broken wire etc. I can definitely say the were multiple wires going to the back of the starter switch, but I was pretty sure only the one being used... I could have missed something here... I can also definitely positively say there were only the three connections to the battery. Negative grounded at the starter. Positive to the solenoid and the single wire from the alternator going to the + side of battery. I can only guess that maybe the wire going from the solenoid to the starter switch (via the original harness) maybe connected to another wire within the original wire harness. At this point I completely removed all the wiring and old harness and want to re-wire with all new wiring. Based on what you have said, it sounds like its not going to start as I am missing something. You say I will need to add the following;

A wire from the + side of battery to the start switch.
A wire from the "START" lug of the start switch to the solenoid coil connection. I assume this would be the "I" post on the solenoid?
A wire from both the "START" and "RUN" lugs on the start switch to the ignition primary circuit? (Not sure here where your referring to?)

It sounds like you know what your talking about and I would be extremely appreciative if you could clarify the extra wires I need to add to this diagram to get running again. Thanks much.

The ignition primary circuit connects the battery to the primary side of the coil and then to the distributor points and then to ground. The secondary ignition circuit is the wire that comes out of the coil tower and goes to the distributor cap center and is "distributed" to the spark plugs..
I have to move my irrigation water right now. I will send you the wiring schematic when I get back in in a an hour and a half.

 

[Jerry/MT]

This 4400 industrial tractor was 12v when I got it at which time it had the generator in it. The coil says 12v on it. None of the gauges worked and a volt meter to the battery while it was running told me it was not being charged. Besides that I had to put the battery on a charger to get it started. Since none of the gauges were working and the wiring harness was somewhat crumby and brittle etc., we did the conversion on the diagram and it started and charged and ran fine for years except for the annual solenoid problem/replacement. This last time with the solenoid sticking or not starting episode, when it did start the starter continued to run and made a horrible noise, then I could not get it to turn off with the key. I had to jump off the tractor and pull off the neg. battery cable to get it to shutdown. So I was so frustrated at this point I just parked it there. When I went back to draw out this diagram I decided to pull everything out including the original wiring harness which was a mess with brittle and broken wire etc. I can definitely say the were multiple wires going to the back of the starter switch, but I was pretty sure only the one being used... I could have missed something here... I can also definitely positively say there were only the three connections to the battery. Negative grounded at the starter. Positive to the solenoid and the single wire from the alternator going to the + side of battery. I can only guess that maybe the wire going from the solenoid to the starter switch (via the original harness) maybe connected to another wire within the original wire harness. At this point I completely removed all the wiring and old harness and want to re-wire with all new wiring. Based on what you have said, it sounds like its not going to start as I am missing something. You say I will need to add the following;

A wire from the + side of battery to the start switch.
A wire from the "START" lug of the start switch to the solenoid coil connection. I assume this would be the "I" post on the solenoid?
A wire from both the "START" and "RUN" lugs on the start switch to the ignition primary circuit? (Not sure here where your referring to?)

It sounds like you know what your talking about and I would be extremely appreciative if you could clarify the extra wires I need to add to this diagram to get running again. Thanks much.

I have a wiring schematic in.jpeg format but I can't attach it for some reason

 

[Jerry/MT]

Here's a schematic of what I was talking about. It's from the 10 Series Ford Shop Manual

 

[4johns]

As I stated earlier, the tractor was running a 12v configuration when I bought it. This is a 1971 and I believe is an original 12V configuration. In the earlier years up to I think about 1965 this model was a 6V system? In total I have replaced over 6 solenoids in 10 -15 years. I have replaced the starter once. I can't believe all 6 failed because all 6 were of poor quality? At this point I am thinking my problem is related to poor wiring. Maybe mis-wiring? Maybe just old degraded wiring? I think the best thing right now is to rewire everything with new wiring. Start with a new solenoid, new alternator, and possibly a new started? Jerry- Thanks for the wiring information. I hope to start rewiring this weekend. I will report back how things are working when I get her started up again... I appreciate your help.

 

[Jerry/MT]

As I stated earlier, the tractor was running a 12v configuration when I bought it. This is a 1971 and I believe is an original 12V configuration. In the earlier years up to I think about 1965 this model was a 6V system? In total I have replaced over 6 solenoids in 10 -15 years. I have replaced the starter once. I can't believe all 6 failed because all 6 were of poor quality? At this point I am thinking my problem is related to poor wiring. Maybe mis-wiring? Maybe just old degraded wiring? I think the best thing right now is to rewire everything with new wiring. Start with a new solenoid, new alternator, and possibly a new started? Jerry- Thanks for the wiring information. I hope to start rewiring this weekend. I will report back how things are working when I get her started up again... I appreciate your help.

A picture is worth a thousand words! I hope the schematic helps you get you tractor running. Glad to help.

 

[Soundguy]

2) The quality of the starter. Is it possibly breaking down internally thus drawing more current than normal? Has somebody replaced the original 12V unit with a 6V unit?

t.

There are NO 6v starters for 3 CYL fords.

In 65+ with the 3cyl fords, their electrical system went to 12v at the factory.

 

[Soundguy]

As I stated earlier, the tractor was running a 12v configuration when I bought it. This is a 1971 and I believe is an original 12V configuration. In the earlier years up to I think about 1965 this model was a 6V system? In total I have replaced over 6 solenoids in 10 -15 years. I have replaced the starter once. I can't believe all 6 failed because all 6 were of poor quality? At this point I am thinking my problem is related to poor wiring. Maybe mis-wiring? Maybe just old degraded wiring? I think the best thing right now is to rewire everything with new wiring. Start with a new solenoid, new alternator, and possibly a new started? Jerry- Thanks for the wiring information. I hope to start rewiring this weekend. I will report back how things are working when I get her started up again... I appreciate your help.

It is crazy easy to replace JUST the starter circuit wiring... and that's what I'd do. you might have a poor connection causing heat and dropped volts somewhere.