John Deere 345 pto clutch noise.

[mooseman214]

I have a 345 with 1400 hrs on it. It was sitting for 2 years before I got. When the pto clutch is turned off there is a load squeal. When it is turned on it is quite. Is this normal failures mode for an electric clutch? Has anyone ever took one of thees things apart? Any thoughts short on replacing would be appreciated.

 

[Retired Iron Peddler]

I have a 345 with 1400 hrs on it. It was sitting for 2 years before I got. When the pto clutch is turned off there is a load squeal. When it is turned on it is quite. Is this normal failures mode for an electric clutch? Has anyone ever took one of thees things apart? Any thoughts short on replacing would be appreciated.

It's the idler bearing in the clutch assembly making the noise. My 345 makes a rattling dry bearing noise when I turn the mower off. The local JD dealer service tech told me to run it until it locks up and replace the entire clutch assembly. (The clutch assembly slides off the engine crankshaft.)

Your clutch idler bearing lasted much longer than mine. I have a bit less the 500 hours on my 345 even though it's 11 years old.

This winter, if the clutch idler bearing lasts that long, I plan to take the clutch assembly off and see if I can replace the idler bearing. The bearing doesn't show in the JD parts book. If I can just replace the bearing, I'll buy a replacement bearing from a bearing supply store and save the expense of replacing the entire clutch assembly.

Bill

 

[jimgerken]

I agree, it's the lower bearing. That bearing is replaceable. Mine's out right now. The following description and pictures are for a X540. Mines under 200 hours and has this bearing failure. And it is out of warrantee.

Take off the mower deck. Raise the tractor front about 30 inches to make the job easy. Next unplug the clutch's electrical connector from the tractor wiring harness. The electrical connector is about a foot away from the clutch, it does not detach right at the clutch. Now take out the bolt that is visible in the center of the bottom belt pulley which is part of the electrical clutch. The clutch will fall right out in your hands (or on your face if you are not ready). Take it to the bench. Use a 1/2" wrench to remove the long anti-rotation stud from the housing flange (see picture). Now you must mill off or grind off the three rivets that hold on the brake assembly. Do not hit the assembly with a hammer, there are permanent magnets in the brake that will shatter. Once the rivets are ground flush with the clutch housing flange (see picture), tap out the rivets gently and the brake will come off. Mark the magnets' orientation so you can get it back together. For reassembly, instead of rivets you can substitute 3/16" by 1.25 inch bolts and mechanical stop nuts (not Nylocks).

 

[jimgerken]

When you pulled the clutch off the tractor, the main bolt that held on the clutch had a large flat washer on it. That washer contacted a cast part that centers the bearing (the bad bearing) on the shaft. Grab that cast part (it has a couple flats on it), and pull it out. It is keyed and so it will not turn unless you break it, but should pull off. Alternately, you could probably push it out from the other end, with a 1/2" diameter wood dowel or something similar.
Now lift off the drive sheave (pulley) half of the assembly (see picture). There is a spiral ring on each side of the bearing. It takes a little screwdriver to remove it. Clean it up with a toothbrush first, then look carefully before removing the ring. Try not to wreck it. now you can press or pound the bearing out of the sheave assembly. You will have to drive or press on the inner race, because if you push near the outer race you'd ruin that spiral ring that is still in there on that inner side of the bearing. So, just beat it out of there by hitting the inner race.
Clean everything up, take the old bearing to your local bearing specialty retailer, or an electric motor rebuilder, they will match it based on dimensions. Use the old bearing to press the new bearing in, this time putting all the pressure on the outer race only. Reinstall the spiral ring. Reassembly the clutch assembly, reinstall the brake assembly with small bolts as previously described, and re-attach to the machine. Buy me a beer sometime.

 

[jimgerken]

I priced the complete clutch assembly from JD Parts. It says it costs $145. That is one-third of what I was guessing.

 

[sklunk]

Now take out the bolt that is visible in the center of the bottom belt pulley which is part of the electrical clutch. The clutch will fall right out in your hands (or on your face if you are not ready).

I have a stupid question about this part. How do I keep the motor shaft from turning while I try to loosen that bolt in the center?

I'm not having a PTO problem, but a few weeks ago I had to replace the main drive belt. I thought it would be easier if I took the PTO clutch off but I never was able to get that darn bolt loose !!

 

[jimgerken]

I used an air impact wrench, and the bolt just flew out as soon as I pulled the trigger. There was no evidence of locktite or anything on it.

 

[majsharps]

Thanks to Jim's post I was able to replace the 2 bearings for a total of $10.Compared to the $150 replacement price for my 345 lawn tractor.
Pillow Block Bearing Ball Bearing Disc Harrow Bearing Roller Chain V-Belts Radial Ball Bearings is by far the cheapest place I found(866-976-7729). I used a small dremel type grinder to remove the 'burrs' holding the bearing in place. Pound on the metal area of bearing using hammer and removed/replaced both within 30 mins.Put a tiny spot of weld to hold in place.
Simple job for anyone wanting to save $ and motivated by 2 machine shops who said they couldn't press the bearings out.I've attached cpl other pics for ref.Good Luck

 

[QuantumRift]

I'm gonna BUMP this thread, even though it's old. I have a 345 that I bought with my property back in 2013. I've had to do a lot of maint on it but I"ll keep this one to the PTO Clutch. I've had trouble keeping that **** PTO bolt IN the bottom end of the crankshaft. That is, about 4 years ago (summer 2014), the first issue I had was that the bolt backed itself out and as a a result the clutch fell off the crankshaft. Since I lost hte bolt in the yard, I went to JD and purchased a couple new bolts (and washers)\. I installed a new bolt (no other damage), but since I wasn't familiar with the engine and how to do it, I just cranked the bolt on with an impact gun. The next summer, I lost another bolt. Well this one broke off. I was lucky enough to be able to use a punch and walked it back out as it was broke close to the end of the crankshaft. I installed another bolt, with Loc-Tite and an impact gun and that was that. Before the summer was out I was looking to replace the PTO Clutch as it was making noise. I did not want to pay the $250 JD price or even $180 eBay price, so I replaced the lower bearing (the one closed to the mower deck), and reinstalled it. No problem.

A couple of years ago, the **** bolt broke again. and I was still lucky enough to get it out of the crankshaft.

THings were OK until a couple of days ago.

I fired up the tractor, engaged the mower deck and after about 15 seconds, the bolt broke again. This time I wasn't so lucky. The bolt sheared about 3/8 inch below the crankshaft, and with loc-tite installed, I was not able to use a punch this time. ullinghair:

I started drilling out the bolt with 1/8" bit, and was able to drill deep into the bolt. I then uses a 3/16 bit and got it open a bit more. I used an automotive grade extraction kit (I hesitate to say "easy out" because that's a brand name, not a type of tool), a square one...pounded it into the hole as directed and with HAND pressure proceeded to BREAK the EXTRACTOR. It was very brittle and appeared to be made of Chinesium ( -26 on the Periodic Table of Cheap Elements). SO now I'm in a terrible quandry. I don't have anything to proceed, so I thought I'd call the local JD dealer down the road and ask them. Well, boy did I get an answer. "We don't typically do that kind of extraction...as that's a worst case scenario, you'll prob have to replace the crankshaft"....so I asked him how much and after some math, I was told "about $1600. The crankshaft alone is $325. $85 an hour labor, and its an 8 hour job. Include gaskets, etc and that's about $1600." I said "THANK YOU" and told him I'd 'be in touch'. I called a machine shop in Lancaster OH that I deal with and they could not help me, but DID refer me to a small business (auto work) near me, so I called him and discussed it. After I sent him a pic he said, "Bring it over, I've seen worse" and that was last Friday. Saturday he had it out, after 2.5 hours and using a $300 diamond-tipped bit to cut it out. He only charged me $50.

So, anyways, when the PTO clutch broke off, one of the wires broke so I'll have to fix that problem. On one of the wires coming out of the clutch, I only have less than 2" to work with.....arggghhhh.

I called JD again and talked to the guy and asked him if he could tell me the torque specs for that PTO bolt, as I could NOT find any info on the 'net or in my manuals. He finally was able to find it, and it is supposed to be 45' lbs. So I would STRONGLY URGE anybody NOT to overtorque that bolt with an impact wrench. And the bolts I"ve been using I get from JD, and they are HARD bolts, UH 10.9 (equiv grade 8). There's not much harder in bolts, so after talking to the JD guy and my mechanic friend, they suggested getting a bolt that is about 1/4" longer. So I did (see pictures).
. The reasoning behind that is that the bolt doesn't really get enough "bite" into the crankshaft, etc etc etc..

I will use the rope method to 'lock' the engine so I can apply the correct torque on the bolt.

BUT my question is this: I've cleaned and replaced bearing(s) in PTO clutch. Is there some sort of adjustment procedure on the clutch SPRINGS..that is, is there a measurement or something that let you know you have the clutch plates adjusted the right distance apart? That's my concern. I've had this thing apart a couple of times and I've never had a procedure to follow, just try to get it adjusted the same all around and hope it works OK...

thanks for your answers in advance.

Well, I did just google "PTO CLUTCH ADJUSTMENT JOHN DEERE 345 and got some hits...lemme check 'em out and I'll get back here....

QuantumRift (doug).

 

[QuantumRift]

OK, I seem to find some info that says the air gap on the PTO clutch should be .018"....is that good?

d

 

[QuantumRift]

OK, I seem to find some info that says the air gap on the PTO clutch should be .018"....is that good?

d

 

[tomplum]

If that is what the specs say, set it. If it won't lock go down to.012

 

[Missouri Lad]

You need to get rid of that impact wrench. You are too dangerous with it. Under no circumstances, should you use aa impact wrench to install a PTO/to the crankshaft. You are lucky you didn't do more damage (you may have and don't know it) to the engine. You are only to tighten the bolt by a torque wrench. Go buy one and use it on all nuts and bolts on the tractor.

You need to go here...K&T Parts House Lawn Mower Parts & Chain Saw & Trimmer Parts

Click on the "red banner" where it says. Repair Manuals. Scroll down to Kawasaki-Service-Repair-Manuals, Open the file and scroll down to the fourth (4th) line to get the FD590V or FD611V Kawasaki engine on all items . That includes the torque settings.

 

[QuantumRift]

OH I got rid of it! I have torque wrenches.


.018" appears to be good. I got my clutch back on, and had to repair the wiring. I got the longer bolt in an torqued to 46 ft-lbs with a drop of loc-tite. I called the John Deere dealer down the road. I started it up and engaged the mower and could tell the difference in its function in closing the air gap. I think it had to be close to .040 when I started. The clutch grabbed up quick with no noise, and the belt stayed engaged well. I put rope in the cylinder to hold the engine from turning over, and got the right torque on it. It mowed great, and I can call it fixed.

Anyways, for what its worth. Thanks for the link!

You need to get rid of that impact wrench. You are too dangerous with it. Under no circumstances, should you use aa impact wrench to install a PTO/to the crankshaft. You are lucky you didn't do more damage (you may have and don't know it) to the engine. You are only to tighten the bolt by a torque wrench. Go buy one and use it on all nuts and bolts on the tractor.

You need to go here...K&T Parts House Lawn Mower Parts & Chain Saw & Trimmer Parts

Click on the "red banner" where it says. Repair Manuals. Scroll down to Kawasaki-Service-Repair-Manuals, Open the file and scroll down to the fourth (4th) line to get the FD590V or FD611V Kawasaki engine on all items . That includes the torque settings.

 

[QuantumRift]

OK guys, I bumped another post about PTO bolt breaking but I'll keep it here. The bolt I just replaced last week sheared off this morning. I hadn't even engaged the PTO when it it sheared and clutch dropped. Are the bearings that bad? Or should I just replace the entire **** thing as I just do not have the time to keep screwing around with it. If I replace it, should I replace the crankshaft pulleyt that sits above it?

Just need an answer....suggestions, etc...
thx

doug

 

[tomplum]

You should be replacing the cupped washer as well. Using the bolt from JD or sure it's a hard bolt-M10X90 it shows. 125 pitch I'd think. If that didn't do it I would suspect the clutch. Does the shaft shake at all like it could be tweaked? One other thing. I've gotten clutches out of the Deere box that were updated and required a longer bolt. Though I assume it breaks just inside the crank.

 

[Missouri Lad]

Something must be really wrong here. Does your crankcase belt pulley have a keyway with a key to keep it from turning? Never mind. I just went to one of my Kawasaki FD611V engine pictures and it shows there is a "keyway" in the crankshaft as the picture shows below.

There shouldn't be any type of pressure on the pulley force to shear the bolt. The bolt is to keep the PTO on the shaft and it too has no force other than that. So, why is the bolt shearing off at the crankcase shaft? Get another bolt and "don't" install the mower deck belt to the PTO and see what happens. The bolt just spins with the shaft and there's nothing hitting the bolt to force it to break.

 

[QuantumRift]

Yea, I always replace the washer. I get the right bolt every time. This past time I put a bolt that was about 1/4" longer in.

I have rebuilt the bearings in clutch, but no go. On the clutch plate, the alignment hole (where the pin off the bottom engine there goes to hold clutch from spinning) is really wogged out and when engaging it slams about 5/8 of an inch...so I was gonna weld a bit of steel there to reinforce the hole and reduce the 'jitter"...but instead, I ordered a new clutch from OX CLutch in Eugene Oregon.

I went to the local John Deere dealer/service center and asked them. One of the older guys there said that there's a good chance it's the crankshaft pulley for the drive belt that the clutch rides against. Once it gets worn (and it is visibly worn), it causes problems like I have been having.

So I have new bolts and and washers, new clutch coming AND will get a new pulley and key. Hope THAT fixes it.

You should be replacing the cupped washer as well. Using the bolt from JD or sure it's a hard bolt-M10X90 it shows. 125 pitch I'd think. If that didn't do it I would suspect the clutch. Does the shaft shake at all like it could be tweaked? One other thing. I've gotten clutches out of the Deere box that were updated and required a longer bolt. Though I assume it breaks just inside the crank.

 

[QuantumRift]

I think the problem has been identified (see response above). Even at the correct torque of 46 ft lbs, it sheared, but the JD Service shop tech said that the drive pulley can be the problem as well as the wogged out hole on the clutch plate for the retaining/alignment pin. Yea, I know that the bolt only keeps the pto clutch butted up against the pully. There is a keyway and a key as well, but I am getting a new key to use. The PTO clutch only fits up on there one way with the key, and the plate with the hole for the alignment/retaining pin is wogged out. So I'll keep at it..

doug

Something must be really wrong here. Does your crankcase belt pulley have a keyway with a key to keep it from turning? Never mind. I just went to one of my Kawasaki FD611V engine pictures and it shows there is a "keyway" in the crankshaft as the picture shows below.


There shouldn't be any type of pressure on the pulley force to shear the bolt. The bolt is to keep the PTO on the shaft and it too has no force other than that. So, why is the bolt shearing off at the crankcase shaft? Get another bolt and "don't" install the mower deck belt to the PTO and see what happens. The bolt just spins with the shaft and there's nothing hitting the bolt to force it to break.

 

[aa21830]

Reviving this thread just to say thanks for all who contributed. My X540 PTO bolt broke off and like others, the bottom two pieces of the clutch fell off. I just went through the repair and this thread helped greatly. A few things to add:

First, nothing just "falls off" on a 10-yr-old machine...the upper part of the clutch was firmly attached to the shaft. I was able to get a 2-jaw puller on it, and it came off.

After grinding off the rivets on the brake, I was able to use M5 bolts to re-attach. They are snug in the holes, but fit well. When popping out the rivets, VERY important to be gentle. The edge of one of the magnets cracked just a bit; nothing serious, but definitely don't want to pound on it - magnets are brittle.

I struggled to keep the engine from turning over when I torqued the PTO bolt. Finally discovered I could grab both sides of the drive belt, squeeze them together real tight and that was enough to keep the pulley from turning.

Thanks again.