77 Satoh Beaver S370D wont start, low compression

[HomesteadOC]

New to me beaver S370D, serial number indicated 77 or early 78 model year. Seller said it just wouldnt start one day, thinks glow plugs are bad. Got the non-running special for $2500, came with a front loader and theres little to no rust anywhere, fluids all look good. Got it home, ignition switch looks like its not for a diesel, glow plugs were wired to ignition on so they probably fried themselves running hot the whole time. Tested the circuit and I get 12v there, but plugs dont get hot, let alone warm. Ordered new correct switch, glow plugs, all the filters and fluids. Compression is at 275psi for #1, 300psi for #2, I put some lucas oil ATF cleaner in there the first day and then some high mileage ATF the second day. So far its been sitting for 2 days with the ATF cocktail in the cylinders. My hope is that the rings are stuck and this will loosen them up and return compression to something above where it needs to start at. If that doesnt work Im going to try some seafoam or restore. The mechanic Ive talked to on the phone says it looks like re-ringing is in my future. What results have you guys got from just a re-ring? Ive never worked on diesels before so Im not sure how great a job just a re-ring is going to do. I guess it all depends on how the cylinders are looking. I would just prefer not to buy the $900 build kit and pay for it to be bored and all that.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Compression issue is fixed, but it still wont start. Soaked the pistons in some high mileage formulated ATF and some lucas oil for a week. Compression tested at 455psi on #1 and over 550psi on #2, Im not sure how Im possibly getting that high of a reading on #2. Its the harbor freight $30 diesel compression tester, Ill retest again tomorrow after work. I installed new glow plugs NGK 6825 (10mm 1.25 thread), plugs read 10.5v when lit. I didnt check for sure they are glowing hot, but they are warm to the touch on top after 30s of warming. I killed the battery trying to start it a few times, so Im going to leave it on the charger all night and tomorrow and Ill double check my plugs and compression tomorrow. Im pretty sure Im getting diesel in the cylinder because when I was doing the compression test I was getting a nice diesel mist all over my beard. Also when I got it the injector fitting was loose and leaking fuel all over the engine in pulses when I first tried to start it. The diesel is left over from the previous owner and is probably around 3mo old. The only thing I can think of to do next is to get a pull or push start if my charging and starting doesnt work.

 

[thepumpguysc]

IF you had left the oil concoction in the cylinders when doing the compr. test.. its possible that's what your reading..
Remove ALL the gp's, spin the engine over till its all out & re-do the compr. test..
IF, as you suspect, its low compression, it should read in the low 200's..
Anything over 300 will start a diesel engine.. 500 & you got yourself a race tractor.. Lol

 

[thepumpguysc]

Get rid of the old fuel..
How long are you leaving the gp's on for..??

 

[HomesteadOC]

IF you had left the oil concoction in the cylinders when doing the compr. test.. its possible that's what your reading..
Remove ALL the gp's, spin the engine over till its all out & re-do the compr. test..
IF, as you suspect, its low compression, it should read in the low 200's..
Anything over 300 will start a diesel engine.. 500 & you got yourself a race tractor.. Lol

I cranked the engine for 10s and shot the ATF all over myself to clear it, then did the compression test and got the high readings. During the test the other plug was left out on each so that shouldve cleared anything left over. Not sure how else to clean out the ATF apart from removing the head and wiping it up.

When I get home from work today Im hoping my new fuel filter will be sitting on my doorstep. If so Ill drain all the old diesel, replace all the fuel lines and the filter, bleed with new diesel and try again. Im planning on checking the plugs and making sure they are glowing properly. I count to 30 slowly while I warm the plugs try to crank for 10s then glow the plugs for another 30 slow count until the starting sounds weak then go organize the garage for an hour until the charge builds back up. Also the glow plug indicator was previously bypassed with a figure 8 of bare wire across the terminals, Ill re-bypass it with a straight shot from the switch with new wire. I contemplated buying a new indicator, but they were around $60 so that will wind up on the wish list for now.
The new ignition switch is coming today as well hopefully and that will make me feel better knowing my plugs wont be on constantly while the engine is running. Also a new battery might be in my future, the old one is dated 9/15 and it seems pretty weak cranking against the increased compression, but maybe thats the starter. Ill put some distilled water in there today too.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Fuel filter was there, but nothing else. I already had a roll of fuel line so I replaced all the old lines, filter and old diesel. The new diesel looks more blue than the old stuff so maybe it was bad? I grounded out the battery while removing the tank to get the last bit of old diesel out so I couldnt crank it. I did bleed the fuel system and noticed that the injectors were ganged together with some fuel line and had a broken T between them, I couldnt see where the broken part of the T would go to, anyone know? I didnt have another T and I dont know where it went anyway so I just connected them with a straight piece of fuel line. The only thing that would make sense is connecting them to the overflow outlet to the fuel tank? Thats the closest thing, but the line coming out of there just points down. It would seem that having that open to air would let air in the fuel and cause the iniectors to not work properly? After dinner I cranked it to purge the injector lines and then tried to start, but my battery got too week and that was the end of that. Ill try cranking some more tomorrow, hopefully my ignition switch arrives. Im getting blackish smoke coming out of the exhaust during cranking and the glow plugs are getting hot. Maybe my battery is too weak to turn this beast over with the increased compression? I wasnt able to retest compression because of the battery being grounded out, but I didn notice it was low on water so I topped it off with distilled. I ran out before I could get all the cells so Ill have to pick up some more tomorrow. 5/6 cells should be sufficient though, right? What little cranking I did was done with the throttle pulled back 3/4 of the way towards the rear of the tractor I played with it a little in the top 1/2 of the throttle position to see if it would crank any easier or harder in certain spots, but I didnt notice a difference.
Everything leads me to believe that this engine should be cranking easily, there must be something really simple that Im missing. I have new diesel, hot plugs, plenty of air (I removed the intake for testing until new filter arrives), the only thing that I can think of is a weak battery or weak starter. Possibly some safety switch, but from what I read in the ops manual is that it wont allow the tractor to even crank if the safety switches are not engaged. Do I need more cranks to cycle the rest of that old diesel through the line? Is my battery to blame? Maybe wrong glow plugs? Online I see it takes 12mm 1.25 thread NGK, but my head has a 10mm hole and I replace them with what was already there (NGK 6825). Maybe its something to do with the incorrect ignition switch? The seller had it running with that switch and that broken T in the fuel line. Any help or advice is much appreciated, thanks.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Just watched a bolens G154 video from steve to see where that hose goes and it looks like it goes to that fitting on the tank. Ill pick up a T on the way home tomorrow and get that plumbed in, but it doesnt seem like that would cause it not to start. Is that hose to equalize the pressure on the injectors, overflow, or maybe some kind of self bleeding apparatus?

Steve: I couldnt get a video uploaded, but my smoke looks a lot like your G154 with low compression that you honed out. The difference I see is your cranking speed is faster and you get yours started. Ill try again tomorrow, but I might just buy a new battery if I have to keep charging for hours after I top off the water in the 6th cell.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Can you run some jumper cables from your work truck to the weak tractor battery, for starting purposes?
It has to spin over quite fast.. inorder to achieve ignition.. The glow plugs only "help"..
I don't know how long your supposed to hold the gp's on.. but I did work on a 2 cylinder "Universal" sailboat engine once & the owner couldn't get it started..
I tried & tried.. I went thru the entire fuel system, pump, injectors, filters, compression.. still no start..
Luckily he had the operators manual.. 1st thing it said was, "push the glow plug button down & hold for 90 seconds".. WHAT?? 90 SECONDS??
THATS ALONG TIME.!! I did it & the engine roared to life in 2 turns of the motor..

 

[HomesteadOC]

I have a jumper that plugs into 120VAC that is supposed to able to jump cars. I leave it plugged in and connected while Im jumping or “charging” the battery. Ill give the 90s a try after work, Ive been doing 30-60s warming between start attempts. Also its worth noting that Im in Southern California and were having 70+ degree days and this tractor is on the West side of a light colored stucco garage. The sun gets it pretty warm by the time I get home.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Hmmm.. you would think that the 30-60s would be sufficient?? but then again, I was starting w/ a rebuilt/proven fuel system.
Any chance in calling the previous owner & asking him "the trick" to getting it started?
Glow plug count, throttle position.. that sort of thing..

 

[HomesteadOC]

Hmmm.. you would think that the 30-60s would be sufficient?? but then again, I was starting w/ a rebuilt/proven fuel system.
Any chance in calling the previous owner & asking him "the trick" to getting it started?
Glow plug count, throttle position.. that sort of thing..

He couldnt get it started, thats why I got it cheap. He had it listed for $3500, but I got it for $2500 with the non-starting discount. I figured the loader and the reverser are worth about that much so Id be ok either way. He said he thought the glow plugs were bad and Ive replaced those. I asked him to test compression and he bad his neighbor do it and reported 10-12, Im assuming that he was looking at a bar scale but he prefaced the reading with its really really low. The previous owner is not really the one to ask, but he asked me to let him know what It turns out to be wrong with it. He had it running through fall of last year, so maybe Ill pick his brain a little on what his starting ritual was. He sent me a video of him trying to start it so Ill check throttle position there and replicate that. Im starting to lean more towards the battery because it should be able to crank this thing more that 3 times at 10-20s each. Ill give it one more chance after I top off the cells with water and a full charge. The seller also left the key switch on the whole time he was driving tk deliver it, close to 5 hour drive.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Glow plugs should only require 20-30 seconds max before cranking even in weather 20-40 degrees F. Keep in mind your glow plugs are supposed to be energized while the engine is cranking. You might want to check to make sure someone didn't "rewire" that out.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Glow plugs should only require 20-30 seconds max before cranking even in weather 20-40 degrees F. Keep in mind your glow plugs are supposed to be energized while the engine is cranking. You might want to check to make sure someone didn't "rewire" that out.

Ill double check the wiring. I checked that turning ignition switch to the left doesnt energize plugs, but turning right does. I did not check while cranking, but I will do that. My new correct ignition switch is supposed to be delivered today, so Ill make sure that gets wired up according to the wiring diagram. Is there any harm in bypassing the glow plug indicator or not having that fuel return line connected from the injectors to the tank?

PS
That turbo Iseki you have is pretty rad, do you know what kind of HP youre getting at the PTO? The PTO chippers I want require 18HP minimum and this Beaver is only rated at 12.2HP.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

The glow plugs are designed for around 10 VDC. When you are just pre-glowing the plugs they go through the indicator to drop the voltage to the required amount. When you use the switch to start the engine the "system" voltage drops to around 10 VDC due to the load the starter puts on the circuit. If you bypass the indicator without compensating for the higher voltage the battery can deliver (around 12 VDC) there is a potential to burn up your glow plugs.

The fuel return line can be left disconnected but should eventually be hooked up. It's usually a very small amount of fuel . The purpose of it is to return the small amount of fuel that doesn't get injected into the cylinder to burn. How come all of it doesn't go into the cylinder? Some of it is used to lubricate the rest of the injector according to this:

How an older diesel fuel injector works - YouTube

So it either goes on the ground or back to the tank.

I installed a turbo mainly to compensate for the high elevation I used to live at and to see what its feasibility is. I don't know what the peak hp is that it is making. I did not increase the fuel so probably not much more than stock. Fundamentally you just need to slow down if you have less horsepower available. Certainly some implements can gobble up all the power in the inherent losses they have so there is a limit to this. I would suspect your tractor will run the chipper, but not at the designed loading conditions. Whether or not you can tolerate the speed at which it can run under your loading conditions is something for you to decide. Your chipper does not require 18 continuous hp, but may require it to slice up a 3" diameter branch, 6' long, in 10 seconds as an example.

 

[HomesteadOC]

The glow plugs are designed for around 10 VDC. When you are just pre-glowing the plugs they go through the indicator to drop the voltage to the required amount. When you use the switch to start the engine the "system" voltage drops to around 10 VDC due to the load the starter puts on the circuit. If you bypass the indicator without compensating for the higher voltage the battery can deliver (around 12 VDC) there is a potential to burn up your glow plugs.

The fuel return line can be left disconnected but should eventually be hooked up. It's usually a very small amount of fuel . The purpose of it is to return the small amount of fuel that doesn't get injected into the cylinder to burn. How come all of it doesn't go into the cylinder? Some of it is used to lubricate the rest of the injector according to this:

How an older diesel fuel injector works - YouTube

So it either goes on the ground or back to the tank.

I installed a turbo mainly to compensate for the high elevation I used to live at and to see what its feasibility is. I don't know what the peak hp is that it is making. I did not increase the fuel so probably not much more than stock. Fundamentally you just need to slow down if you have less horsepower available. Certainly some implements can gobble up all the power in the inherent losses they have so there is a limit to this. I would suspect your tractor will run the chipper, but not at the designed loading conditions. Whether or not you can tolerate the speed at which it can run under your loading conditions is something for you to decide. Your chipper does not require 18 continuous hp, but may require it to slice up a 3" diameter branch, 6' long, in 10 seconds as an example.

Ignition switch came, but its raining. Im going to read up on the wiring diagram and then run out there when it slows down a little. We have 2 broke down cars in the garage and I dont have room for my broke down tractor, lol.

 

[HomesteadOC]

View attachment 543890
My diagram shows 4 connections used on the stock switch and I have 6 on the replacement and theyre all labeled differently than the diagram. On the new switch I have R1, R2, BR, ACC, C, and B the diagram has labels AC, 50, 170, 300, and what looks like 19 or 49. AC goes to the voltage regulator and the headlights (accessory), 50 isnt used, 170 goes to the S on the starter, 300 goes to the +battery, B on the generator, and the + side of the starter, and 19 or 49 goes to AV2 on the glow plug indicator and eventually the glow plugs.

On the new switch Im guessing:
C is common and should be matched to the 170 wire to the negative side of the starter?
ACC is accessory and matched to AC wire
B is (who knows, maybe bias?) and matches B on the generator.
Just not sure which one glow plugs go to.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Found this one in the repair manual and it makes much more sense. I see where youre talking about the indicator in the circuit.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

You'll probably have to map out the new switch with a multi-meter and adapt it to the diagram the best you can. Some switches don't have provisions for glow plugs which makes for a real headache.

 

[HomesteadOC]

I used the second diagram and it makes a lot of sense to me and its easy to follow. Traced out all the wires to make sure theyre going to where the diagram says they should go and its all correct so I changed the switch. There were a lot of wires spliced together with twisting the wires together and electrical taped, then the whole loom electrical taped so no one can see how horrible of a wiring job it was. I rewired with all new thicker wires except for the ACC circuit, there was just too much going on there and I dont need it to start the engine. It will definitely be looked at after I get the starting issue resolved, and when its not raining, and Im not hunched over the engine with a tarp on my head. Also put the glow plug indicator back in the circuit the way its supposed to be and it works, so thats awesome. Unfortunately the tractor is still not starting, but it sounds more like its going to start than before. The only thing I can think of is the battery is too weak. I topped off the last cell with water when I got home and it charged for 2 hours befods I tried to start it. I also have yet to retest the compression, it got dark and it was dinner time so that will be done tomorrow.

 

[thepumpguysc]

I gotta hand it to ya Home.. your keepin at it.. Your not makin any progress but your keepin at it.. LOL..
And THANK YOU for keeping us up to date on your "doings".. MOST people come on here, ask a bazillion questions, get a bazillion answers & then disappear..
I wish you could snap/post a picture of your fuel system set-up.. w/ a pic. I might be able to tell you how to hack into the fuel system.
Keep at it.. ALL those things that your fixing now.. HAD TO BE DONE sooner than later..
Glow plugs DEFINATLY had to be replaced & the key switch "needed" to be corrected..
NOW, if we could just get confirmation on those dam compression #'s.. lol.