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  1. #1
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    Default Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    This is a repost from original placed on gen'l forum

    1993 1715 bare bones. 600 hours maintained well. Very low torque when PTO is turning deck mower, for example. At normal power, RPM's remain normal, but PTO rotation and tractor speed slow considerably, especially on inclines. The deck mower has always slowed a bit in thick grass, but this is different - the PTO rotation and tractor speed almost stop.

    I know better than to attempt this repair myself, but I'd like some advice on some simple checks before I have the dealer come out and pick it up. Also, if the clutch on this is bad, how can I keep the dealer honest on repair costs? What's reasonable? Thanks.

  2. #2
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by kgiovann View Post
    This is a repost from original placed on gen'l forum

    1993 1715 bare bones. 600 hours maintained well. Very low torque when PTO is turning deck mower, for example. At normal power, RPM's remain normal, but PTO rotation and tractor speed slow considerably, especially on inclines. The deck mower has always slowed a bit in thick grass, but this is different - the PTO rotation and tractor speed almost stop.

    I know better than to attempt this repair myself, but I'd like some advice on some simple checks before I have the dealer come out and pick it up. Also, if the clutch on this is bad, how can I keep the dealer honest on repair costs? What's reasonable? Thanks.

    Do you know if you have live PTO.? Tractor data reports only transmission driven PTO. If you have transmission driven PTO or single clutch, I think there is a good chance that clutch is slipping when you need torque greater than what you need to move the tractor. Do you have on the right side of tractor a rubber inspection hole? advise if you do, and I can suggest a simple non- invasive check to see if clutch is slipping with torque applied to PTO shaft.


    JC,
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Not sure if it's live, but. . . There is no inspection hole/window anywhere on ther right. An large oval rubber bootie on the left, but it's located in the middle of a hole pattern so I suspect thats for hydraulics which I don't have (loader).

    When transmission is in nuetral, pto still spins - does that indicate live or single? Cluth pedal connects to linkage above pedal and pushes an actuator when fully depressed. I can post a picture if needed. Thanks.

  4. #4
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by kgiovann View Post
    Not sure if it's live, but. . . There is no inspection hole/window anywhere on ther right. An large oval rubber bootie on the left, but it's located in the middle of a hole pattern so I suspect thats for hydraulics which I don't have (loader).

    When transmission is in nuetral, pto still spins - does that indicate live or single? Cluth pedal connects to linkage above pedal and pushes an actuator when fully depressed. I can post a picture if needed. Thanks.
    In transmission driven (single clutch) PTO, the pto will continue to turn in neutral if PTO handle is engaged. same happens with live clutch. One way to make sure is to do the following:

    with tractor running, clutch all the way, engage pto lever, put the tractor in gear, let go of clutch and start moving . you should be moving forward and pto turning. While you are moving clutch halfway, that should kill the power to the wheel, tractor should come to stop while pto remains turning. in that point while stopped if you push the clutch pedal all the way down then PTO is stopped. if you can duplicate it then you have live Double clutch ) PTo.

    post a picture on the oval boot that you are talking about. on 1700 oval boot is on the right side and you can inspect and adjust clutch in the clutch housing.


    JC,
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Based on what you describe, this is a single clutch system. PTO and transmission both stop simultaneously.

    I took the boot off the access hole on the left side I described, and it may provide access to adjust the clutch. Picture provided which also shows the pedal with linkage and actuator. Thanks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails -008-jpg  

  6. #6
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by kgiovann View Post
    Based on what you describe, this is a single clutch system. PTO and transmission both stop simultaneously.

    I took the boot off the access hole on the left side I described, and it may provide access to adjust the clutch. Picture provided which also shows the pedal with linkage and actuator. Thanks.


    Kgiovann,

    Yes that is the access for clutch adjustment only if you have double clutch. clutch adjustment on single disk is done outside and basically is adjustment of release bearing surface to pressure plate fingers. no adjustment as far as pressure plate can be made. In other word if clutch disk wears out beyond it's spec then pressure plate/flywheel and disk in between will not be able to maintain adequate torque.

    With single clutch, engine off, PTO engaged, gear in neutral, clutch pressed in by help of a block of wood and then you can simply turn the clutch disk by help of a some sort of stick or a screwdriver. clutch disk is free to spin since pressure plate is not pushing against the disk.

    Now one way to check if clutch disk is slipping or not is to maintain all the conditions above minus engaging the clutch ( clutch pedal all the way up) and tractor in some gear rather than neutral. In that fix you can have an assistant to try to turn rear pto shaft by using a pipe wrench. if clutch plate is gone and you do not have much grabbing force than you can see with the aid of a flash light the slippage of the your clutch disk. in this fix pto should not be able to turn unless clutch is slipping. don't put too much torque on the pto shaft, and keep watching the action thru the peep hole while your assistant tuning the wrench.

    All I'm saying is that you might have enough torque to move the tractor but not enough to operate the pto using a heavy, torque intensive implement. You might have issue with your pto ORC (over running clutch) as well and that's a whole different scenario.

    Replacing a clutch disk would be an easier endeavor. Test it out and report. I would not go overboard on turning the pto shaft with mechanical advantage. don't want to bust any gears just want to check clutch slippage.

    JC,

    in pic below yo see the pressure plate on the left side and two sides of the clutch disk and flywheel on the right.


    Last edited by JC-jetro; 06-19-2009 at 06:12 PM.
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    JC-jetro,
    I am having a similar problem with my Ford 1715 but with a 5' rotary cutter. I know I have a single live clutch. The cutter and PTO stop turning and thus cutting randomly. no change in engine RPM or load that I can associate with the stop of the PTO. Engine runs fine and never bogs down. The odd part is I have a 5' finish mower that runs fine and never stops like the rotary cutter does. I am thinking that the clutch is out of adjutment and cant take the torque of the 5' Rotary cutter.

    So my two questions for you are could you guide me on how to do a clutch adjustment? I was thinking I should try this before sending it off to the repair shop to see if it would help. Second do you think moving down to a 4' rotary mower would make more sense ($500) than replacing PTO clutch ($1500-$2000)?

    thanks fo your advice!

    Fred

  8. #8
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by freddvm View Post
    JC-jetro,
    I am having a similar problem with my Ford 1715 but with a 5' rotary cutter. I know I have a single live clutch. The cutter and PTO stop turning and thus cutting randomly. no change in engine RPM or load that I can associate with the stop of the PTO. Engine runs fine and never bogs down. The odd part is I have a 5' finish mower that runs fine and never stops like the rotary cutter does. I am thinking that the clutch is out of adjutment and cant take the torque of the 5' Rotary cutter.

    So my two questions for you are could you guide me on how to do a clutch adjustment? I was thinking I should try this before sending it off to the repair shop to see if it would help. Second do you think moving down to a 4' rotary mower would make more sense ($500) than replacing PTO clutch ($1500-$2000)?

    thanks fo your advice!

    Fred
    Fred,

    You can't have live pto and single clutch at the same time. With single clutch you have a transmission driven pto. having live pto and you have a dual stage clutch( 2 clutch disks, two pressure plates both sandwiched in one assembly). Thru the peep hole (hand hole) on th side of you clutch housing you can for sure tell what clutch you have. have you ever seen the picture or actual dual clutch?

    I know you said the engine does not bog down but do you lose forward motion about the same time you lose pto power?

    I think finish mower requires less amount of torque than does the rotary cutter. Do you have any issue with your brush hog's gear box? do you have enough oil in the gear box. is anything in drive mechanism of your brush hog that is binding? do you have slip clutch for your rotary cutter or do you have shear pin?

    You do not have PTO clutch (hydraulic independent) pto. If you have live pto then you have to change you main clutch pack that includes both pto and transmission both in one assembly.

    I do not have dual clutch so I have not done adjusting it myself. if you need, I can post procedure off of IT book if you don't already have. I have read the procedure before and find it not too difficult. The fact you are saying no issue with finish mower leads me to believe that there is a good chance your problem may not be pto.

    Check the stuff I suggested and report back.

    JC,
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Hi JC,
    Thanks for your reply. Sorry I do have a single clutch on this tractor.

    I do not loose forward motion when the mower quits. It is quite frustrating as several times I have driven quite a ways before I realized the mower was not spinning. It just slowly winds down until the blades are not spinning. In order to get it going again I have to clutch in, stop and cycle to PTO lever a couple of times.

    I checked the mower gear box and there is oil in it about 1/2-2/3 of the way up the vertical gear. This mower has a slip clutch I think (2 round plates bolted together at the point where the PTO shaft attaches to the mower?) It all turns very freely when I move the blades or the PTO shaft. That is what makes me think it is the PTO because the PTO shaft from the tractor to the mower stops turning but not rapidly it just seems to loose implusion...so the PTO shaft and blades slowly wind down as I am driving along at the same speed.

    Also I did the test you recommended on another post and removed the mower and PTO shaft and I placed the tractor in Neutral and engaged the PTO and truned the tractor engine off. I was easily able to turn the PTO shaft clockwise. When I tried to turn it Counterclockwise abotu 70% of the time it would not turn but 30% of the time I could easily turn the shaft counterclockwise. So does that tell you anything?

    Thanks!!
    Fred






    You can't have live pto and single clutch at the same time. With single clutch you have a transmission driven pto. having live pto and you have a dual stage clutch( 2 clutch disks, two pressure plates both sandwiched in one assembly). Thru the peep hole (hand hole) on th side of you clutch housing you can for sure tell what clutch you have. have you ever seen the picture or actual dual clutch?

    I know you said the engine does not bog down but do you lose forward motion about the same time you lose pto power?

    I think finish mower requires less amount of torque than does the rotary cutter. Do you have any issue with your brush hog's gear box? do you have enough oil in the gear box. is anything in drive mechanism of your brush hog that is binding? do you have slip clutch for your rotary cutter or do you have shear pin?

    You do not have PTO clutch (hydraulic independent) pto. If you have live pto then you have to change you main clutch pack that includes both pto and transmission both in one assembly.

    I do not have dual clutch so I have not done adjusting it myself. if you need, I can post procedure off of IT book if you don't already have. I have read the procedure before and find it not too difficult. The fact you are saying no issue with finish mower leads me to believe that there is a good chance your problem may not be pto.

    Check the stuff I suggested and report back.

    JC,[/QUOTE]

  10. #10
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by freddvm View Post
    Hi JC,
    Thanks for your reply. Sorry I do have a single clutch on this tractor.

    I do not loose forward motion when the mower quits. It is quite frustrating as several times I have driven quite a ways before I realized the mower was not spinning. It just slowly winds down until the blades are not spinning. In order to get it going again I have to clutch in, stop and cycle to PTO lever a couple of times.

    I checked the mower gear box and there is oil in it about 1/2-2/3 of the way up the vertical gear. This mower has a slip clutch I think (2 round plates bolted together at the point where the PTO shaft attaches to the mower?) It all turns very freely when I move the blades or the PTO shaft. That is what makes me think it is the PTO because the PTO shaft from the tractor to the mower stops turning but not rapidly it just seems to loose implusion...so the PTO shaft and blades slowly wind down as I am driving along at the same speed.

    Also I did the test you recommended on another post and removed the mower and PTO shaft and I placed the tractor in Neutral and engaged the PTO and truned the tractor engine off. I was easily able to turn the PTO shaft clockwise. When I tried to turn it Counterclockwise abotu 70% of the time it would not turn but 30% of the time I could easily turn the shaft counterclockwise. So does that tell you anything?

    Thanks!!
    Fred
    Fred,

    The fact that tractor does not slow down when you lose pto suggests your main clutch is probably okay,

    When you tested your pto, did you have clutch in or out?

    No matter what with internal one way clutch pto shaft will turn CCW just fine. With clutch out it will rotate easily and with the clutch in pto rotates if you have clutch slippage.

    You do have slip clutch on your cutter. if It is loose you may not transfer power to cutter head but Main pto shaft before clutch should maintain the same speed.

    important question: when you realize the pto slowed down/quit woorkingm would you notice the pto engagement shaft (stick) is jumped out of engaged position? what do you do to get it work again? There is a dtent ball and spring that keeps the pto in engaged position, if that slips cause the disengagement of the pto.

    If you have pto ORC (over running clutch) issue , then I'd think it'll be working or not, nothing in between.

    I'm hoping that your pto just jumps out... a simple bungee cord to keep the pto engagement shaft may be simple short term solution.


    JC,
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

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