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  1. #1
    Silver Member Foxtrot08's Avatar
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    Default ULSD 101

    Been noticing a lot of posts about diesel on here and issues it's causing.


    In the vast majority of the US now, all diesel fuel - including off road 'dyed' fuel is now, 15 PPM fuel. The only areas still allowed to have 500 PPM diesel is marine fuels and remote parts of the United States - Alaska, certain parts of Montana / North Dakota, etc. But, for all conversational purposes - all diesel is ULSD, no matter what the re-seller says.


    15 PPM sulfur diesel is a number - a top end number, meaning it cannot exceed 15 Parts per million of sulfur - however, it could be less, a lot less - and this is rather important.


    First off, sulfur was a lubricant inside of fuel, which kept our injectors running smoothly, our fuel pumps and well just about everything else that the fuel touched, for that matter. With out this much needed lubricant, the fuel became dry and it also became hygroscopic. What does that mean? Our fuel collects water - was more then it used to, even old diesel was hygroscopic, but a lot less then the newer fuels.


    Some states now require a 2% or 5% blend of Bio-diesel, which adds in another set of problems in fuel today. Bio-diesel's problems include a high gel point - just under 32 degrees, higher acidity in engine oils, eliminating the ability to go 'extended drain intervals', a shelf life (yes, Bio Diesel goes bad), solubility issues and more.


    However, the upside of Bio-diesel, is it replaces the lost lubricant from the sulfur, bio diesel is a natural lubricant and if used / stored / treated properly can actually have some net fuel economy gains and extend the life of parts. So it's not all bad.


    Now combine these changes of fuels, with changes in engine design and engineering and you have quiet an issue. Injectors are tighter tolerances, same with fuel pumps. Fuel lines now run at higher pressures, common rail fuel systems can push 26,000+ PSI easily. Fuel filters are now tighter tolerances - we can get as low as 3 micron in some filters, which means even tighter tolerances on that.


    So, what issues as I, in the fuels industry see a lot?

    Premature filter clogging - I run roughly 80 Semis, lots of other equipment, etc. So I see how many fuel filters we use. Personally, I now change my fuel filters on my 08 F250 with every oil change - roughly 5000-7000 miles.

    Premature failure of components - Injectors, fuel pumps, etc. Including tank rot - we've been buying a lot more fuel tanks as well.

    Basically, the same thing the every day users see - just a lot more of it across the board.

    So how do you fix these issues?

    First off, be specific where you buy your fuel from - especially if you live where it can be cold. Not all fuels are created equal - every refinery / terminal is different. For example, we DO NOT sell Ergon branded fuel in the winter, even if they are the cheapest price. Why? Their fuel is so hydro-treated (the method of removing sulfur) it comes out between 1-3 PPM of sulfur - leading to a higher gel point. As well, this fuel is impossible to treat with fuel additive. We have sent it to several labs, across the US - we've tried every major producer of fuel additive currently marketed in the United States. (We happen to work closely with a company that blends 14 major brands of fuel additive... they all come out of the same tank.) And we work directly with Infineum for our own fuel additives. Ergon fuel, winter blend, simply does not accept additives.


    Secondly, top your tank off every night. Done mowing your grass with your BX22? Top the tank off. Just drove 200 miles with your F350 and not going to drive again for a few days? Top your tank off. With return line fuel coming back hot, into a cold tank, with the chemical properties of ULSD, water forms. For those who think "there is not water in diesel" - there is. A layer of what the industry calls 'mother' sits on the bottom of the tank. It's water, bacteria (algae), dirt, rust, whatever that comes into the tank, or from the return fuel line. Fuel tanks are NOT air tight, they have to breathe, it's the way a fuel system works. With that, atmospheric humidity gets into the tanks - Hot fuel going into cold fuel, combined with humidity = condensation. Leaving more room in the tank = more water in the fuel.


    Don't believe me? Go to a local fuel station and ask them to stick one of their underground storage tanks. It's the same reason why you never buy fuel when they're taking a delivery. They stir up all the crap in the bottom of the tank and it gets sucked through their pump. Most fuel pumps have one of these 3 filters: 50 micron particle, 30 micro particle or if you're lucky/request it on a private tank: 15 micro hygroscopic filter.


    As your vehicle moves, the fuel gets moved around naturally - that layer of mother that was once in the bottom of the tank, is now heading towards your fuel filter. As previously stated, with the tighter tolerances of fuel filters, they are now easier to plug.


    Older equipment often had carbon steel fuel tanks. As the equipment sits - the tanks naturally rust. Before, this was not a big deal. The new fuel will simple now, clean that rust off. Where does it go? In the bottom of your tank, then your fuel filter. This has been a major issue as well.


    Bus lines, not-every-day use vehicles and equipment, etc. All have these issues. The biggest thing is, Top off the tanks after every use. We supply a lot of contractors and school buses. Contractors have changed their way from getting fuel every morning, to now topping off every night. Buses? Not so much... guess who is having fuel filter issues now in new equipment?


    Fuel additive - is now a must. If you buy a good fuel, put additive in it. If you have a private tank and get deliveries - see if the company you buy from puts fuel additive in it or not. It may even be a line item on your bill. My company, does - we put additive in every drop of fuel we sell, on road or off road. Simply what we want to do, as a family owned company - and for roughly a cent a gallon? We will take that to deliver quality fuels.


    It doesn't matter what brand you use - Lucus, PowerService, Shaffers, etc. Just run a fuel additive. They will help kill the bacteria and keep everything lubricated inside of the fuel systems. The industry is coming out with some new products that will continue to help this issue. I know we're working with a company out of Canada on a new fuel additive. The folks over at power service who I saw a few weeks ago, are launching a new product that not only is a biocide (kills the bacteria in fuel) but now breaks it up so that it will pass through filters instead of plugging them.

    Major issue with just a flat 'biocide' is it still will plug filters - even if the bacteria is dead, because it does not dissolve in the fuel.


    No, 2 stroke oil or used motor oil does not count. They do nothing to support the fuel in anyway. It adds nothing to the cold plug point (actually makes it Higher for us winter people), as a lubricity additive it's 'meh' because it doesn't suspend right chemically in the fuel - it basically sinks. Let alone, if you have any of the new emissions equipment it would be a disaster on that. (EGR / DPF / DEF / SCR) Running used motor oil is an even worse - metal shavings, copper, blow by, anti-freeze, etc.


    Third, just expect to change fuel filters more. It's not a bad habit to change them every oil change - cheaper then having to change them in the field, or on the side of the road. As well, anyone who goes long distance - it's not a bad idea to pack an extra set. All my over the road trucks carry a spare set of filters on them now.


    "Why is this not caught by the tank filter?" - I get this a lot. We have hundreds, if not thousands of fuel tanks all over the region we service. The issue is this: The fuel filter on the tank is doing it's job, it's catching what it can, but remember the fuel in the tank is a static temperature - you don't have hot fuel / cold fuel mixing in the tank. Trust me, we have been changing tank filters a lot more then we used to as well so it's happening there - it's just not something as visible as a truck or tractor not working. This is leading to more fuel pumps breaking because they're trying to pump through a clogged filter.

    If you own a few pieces of equipment, or even a diesel truck/tractor - consider asking your local fuel distributor for a small, 275 gallon tank. Or even buying a 55 gallon drum with a hand pump and a filter on it for your home tractor. (That's what I have for my 2305 - it's also my back up home heating oil.)

    Big upfront cost, but if you buy right - buying from a distributor vs. retail can save a ton of money - and effort.


    Hope this helps. A little back ground on me - the company I work for and my family owns, sells roughly 20 million gallons of fuel a year as well as roughly 18 million gallons of lubricant products a year. Placing us as one of the largest lubricant distributors in the US.


    If you have questions on oils, greases, hydraulic fluids, coolants, cutting oils or fuels - please ask me. I've grown up in the oil business, I work in it every day. If I don't know the answer, I work with about 5 other lubricant engineers. I will find out the answer for you.
    ~Fox
    Tractors: JD 2305 w/ MMM & 200CX, NH TN60A w/ 32LA loader, NH Boomer 2420, IH 806 Turbo (Restored, 1964), Farmall Super C (Restored(1952), MF 240S,IH Cub low-boy.

    Attachments... too many!

    Equipment - JD 317, CAT 262, JD 50ZTS, Cat 301.5, Cat 910, CAT 416C IT w/ EHOE, IH TD7E, IH T6(Restored w/ BE Blade package, 1948 w/ 1952 blade)

  2. #2
    Elite Member newbury's Avatar
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot08 View Post
    Been noticing a lot of posts about diesel on here and issues it's causing.


    In the vast majority of the US now, all diesel fuel - including off road 'dyed' fuel is now, 15 PPM fuel. The only areas still allowed to have 500 PPM diesel is marine fuels and remote parts of the United States - Alaska, certain parts of Montana / North Dakota, etc. But, for all conversational purposes - all diesel is ULSD, no matter what the re-seller says.
    What about this:
    Available in both an ultra low sulfur (ULS) formula for on-road use and a dyed low sulfur (DLS) for on-farm and off-road use, SuperGold gets your diesel equipment started faster and keeps it working longer with:
    from Premium Diesel Fuel at Southern States - Southern States

    Is that just an out of date web site?

    <snip>

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot08 View Post
    First off, be specific where you buy your fuel from - especially if you live where it can be cold. Not all fuels are created equal - every refinery / terminal is different. For example, we DO NOT sell Ergon branded fuel in the winter, even if they are the cheapest price. Why? Their fuel is so hydro-treated (the method of removing sulfur) it comes out between 1-3 PPM of sulfur - leading to a higher gel point. As well, this fuel is impossible to treat with fuel additive. We have sent it to several labs, across the US - we've tried every major producer of fuel additive currently marketed in the United States. (We happen to work closely with a company that blends 14 major brands of fuel additive... they all come out of the same tank.) And we work directly with Infineum for our own fuel additives. Ergon fuel, winter blend, simply does not accept additives.
    Where is Ergon sold? What brands use it?
    <snip>
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot08 View Post
    Fuel additive - is now a must. If you buy a good fuel, put additive in it. If you have a private tank and get deliveries - see if the company you buy from puts fuel additive in it or not. It may even be a line item on your bill. My company, does - we put additive in every drop of fuel we sell, on road or off road. Simply what we want to do, as a family owned company - and for roughly a cent a gallon? We will take that to deliver quality fuels.


    It doesn't matter what brand you use - Lucus, PowerService, Shaffers, etc. Just run a fuel additive. They will help kill the bacteria and keep everything lubricated inside of the fuel systems. The industry is coming out with some new products that will continue to help this issue. I know we're working with a company out of Canada on a new fuel additive. The folks over at power service who I saw a few weeks ago, are launching a new product that not only is a biocide (kills the bacteria in fuel) but now breaks it up so that it will pass through filters instead of plugging them.
    What about the arguments of emulsifier vs demulsifier?
    I've read that emulsify if you move and demulsify if it sits still (storage tank). Can I use both products in the same tank?
    Differences in claimed Cetane rating boost?
    <snip>
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot08 View Post
    If you have questions on oils, greases, hydraulic fluids, coolants, cutting oils or fuels - please ask me. I've grown up in the oil business, I work in it every day. If I don't know the answer, I work with about 5 other lubricant engineers. I will find out the answer for you.
    Great!
    Do you know of any "maps" or spreadsheets of where higher cetane fuels are sold?
    Locally to me there are 2 places selling selling 45+ cetane, based on the pump sticker, but if you go to the brands web site there is no info on cetane levels.
    Are there any simple test kits for cetane level?
    My rides - '95 Kubota M4700 w/ PEC, LA1001 FEL :'07 B7610, LA352 FEL, Bush Hog SBX 48 box blade, '09 Woods BH70-X w/ 16" bucket and thumb, 3pt pallet forks, Dale Phillips PHD, Jinma 8" chipper, 2 Piranha's, Winco 12KW PTO generator, Howse plow, 5' KK tiller, 5' Big Bee cutter, with a 2002 7.3L Ford F350 CC DRW 4x4 and '07 18' Hudson HSE Deluxe trailer - 5 Ton to haul it all

  3. #3
    Silver Member Foxtrot08's Avatar
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    Quote Originally Posted by newbury View Post
    What about this:
    from Premium Diesel Fuel at Southern States - Southern States

    Is that just an out of date web site?
    Seems like it. Everyone around us started the conversion over to ULSD universally last year, I believe as of January 2012 this year was the mandate for everyone to switch over to ULSD / Tier 4 emissions start. I know we were told by the IRS when they audited us, about 3 weeks ago to remove and replace all 500ppm fuel stickers on On road and off road tanks immediately because 500ppm fuel is no longer allowed to be sold.

    Where is Ergon sold? What brands use it?
    Ergon sells mostly as private brand - Flying J, Loves, T/A and any 'house' brand. They do not have their own fueling stations really. They have a refinery in northern WV and a few further south in Mississippi and Louisiana. So figure up to 3 hours drive time from their refineries.

    What about the arguments of emulsifier vs demulsifier?
    I've read that emulsify if you move and demulsify if it sits still (storage tank). Can I use both products in the same tank?
    Differences in claimed Cetane rating boost?
    A emulsifier is better then a demulsifier - getting water / bacteria / etc out of your tank is better then letting it sit in the bottom - or clogging your filters up. Pushing it through the fuel filters and burning it off is the best case. You would be right, a emulsifier is best if you move the fuel fast - our storage tanks cycle over about every other day. (x3 22,000 gallon tanks) So we use an emulsifier. If you're going to get a farm tank, and have 300 gallons sitting for 5-7-9 months, you could use a demulisifier and have it sit in the bottom of the tank. (Typically, the suction pump sits 3-5 inches off the bottom of a tank, so that the 'crap' doesn't get sucked up.)

    Cetane is not a huge issue, most ULSD already has a very high cetane in general, due to the hydro treating process. So a cetane boost really, isn't that needed.

    I would stick with one additive type and run with it, when you add two different types, then you risk compatibility issues as well as putting too much additive in, which can be harm fuel as well - injectors sticking, etc.

    Great!
    Do you know of any "maps" or spreadsheets of where higher cetane fuels are sold?
    Locally to me there are 2 places selling selling 45+ cetane, based on the pump sticker, but if you go to the brands web site there is no info on cetane levels.
    Are there any simple test kits for cetane level?
    Unfortunately, it is extremely hard to get any major oil company to put anything spec wise, in writing - for liability reasons they claim. Any pump sticker, etc is all simply marketing and is not really supported by hard facts. So as for getting where high cetane levels or not, not really possible. Best thing I can say is look at your near by refineries and terminals - then you can see what brands you're really buying.

    In my region - with in decent driving distance we have:

    Marathon (3 terminals)
    Ergon (Refinery)
    Sun (Sunoco Terminals)
    BP (Terminal)
    ARG - American Refinery group
    PPC (Terminal)

    Typically, BP is priced out of the market because they only like to supply their own stations.

    Sun, depends on how busy their own stations are.

    Marathon in my area, has nearly zero stations anymore, so they whole sale private brand a lot.

    Ergon is all private brand, same with ARG and PPC. ARG and PPC are right on the edge of my area - over 2 1/2 over drive. So we rarely buy from them, as well they are mostly gasoline.


    Ergon, due to how little sulfur it has, will be the highest cetane levels. Marathon and Sun are about the same - probably sitting at about 9-12 PPM sulfur, so decent cetane levels.

    As for test kits, all you can do is take a sample of it and send it in - about 20-35 dollars for a test kit, not really simple or cheap sadly.
    ~Fox
    Tractors: JD 2305 w/ MMM & 200CX, NH TN60A w/ 32LA loader, NH Boomer 2420, IH 806 Turbo (Restored, 1964), Farmall Super C (Restored(1952), MF 240S,IH Cub low-boy.

    Attachments... too many!

    Equipment - JD 317, CAT 262, JD 50ZTS, Cat 301.5, Cat 910, CAT 416C IT w/ EHOE, IH TD7E, IH T6(Restored w/ BE Blade package, 1948 w/ 1952 blade)

  4. #4
    Bronze Member US American's Avatar
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    Great info, Foxtrot. Thank you. I have a buddy who is an operator at a large refinery. He and ALL his coworkers run an additive in their diesels. That sure tells ya something. I've been running Schaeffer's diesel treat 2000 for two years now and am happy with it.
    JD 4320 Reverser R1s w/ 400x loader

  5. #5
    Silver Member Foxtrot08's Avatar
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    I've used shaeffer's before - if you're happy with it and the price of it, run it.

    As I said, the majority of the diesel fuel additives are the same. They all come out of the same additive blending company's formula and there's only a few companies around the US that blend / package them really.

    There's a few new ones waiting to hit the market here in the US and I will keep posted on them as the first performance reviews come out.

    Remember, the current diesel fuel additives were designed to treat the known issues with ULSD - mostly, the lubricity issue.

    They were not designed to fix the issues such as the hygroscopic problems, the rusting problems, etc. So as the fuel gets 'older', the additives will get better to help correct the problems.

    As well, hopefully the gov't will stop messing with emissions regulations after Tier 4 / Euro 6, so engine builders can keep with an engine series longer then 3 years.
    ~Fox
    Tractors: JD 2305 w/ MMM & 200CX, NH TN60A w/ 32LA loader, NH Boomer 2420, IH 806 Turbo (Restored, 1964), Farmall Super C (Restored(1952), MF 240S,IH Cub low-boy.

    Attachments... too many!

    Equipment - JD 317, CAT 262, JD 50ZTS, Cat 301.5, Cat 910, CAT 416C IT w/ EHOE, IH TD7E, IH T6(Restored w/ BE Blade package, 1948 w/ 1952 blade)

  6. #6
    Super Member crazyal's Avatar
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    One of the hotly debated topics here seams to be what and if there are any differences between off road diesel and home heating oil. In the winter the off road diesel will have an additive mixed into it to keep it from gelling around here and I was told that there's something mixed in to increase the the off road diesel's lubricating properties and some sort of algaecide is added to HHO but that's just word of mouth.
    Kubota L4240,Case 580K backhoe, Case 450 Dozer

  7. #7
    Silver Member Foxtrot08's Avatar
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyal View Post
    One of the hotly debated topics here seams to be what and if there are any differences between off road diesel and home heating oil.
    This would all depend on your distributor of fuel. The company I work for does not sell true 'home heating oil' retail anymore. True home heating oil, is still 500 PPM fuel, but it has a solvent blended into it to keep the nozzles of the furnaces clean. We do whole sale it to other distributors still, however. Do not use home heating oil in a vehicle - it will destroy the inner workings of your fuel pump with the solvent, as well as the rings of your engine, etc. Remember, a furnace doesn't really have moving parts.

    Some other retailers will blend Kerosene and Diesel together in a 70/30 mixture and call it home heating oil.

    We sell dyed fuel as home heating oil - our choice. Price wise, it's much cheaper for the consumer as well.


    In the winter the off road diesel will have an additive mixed into it to keep it from gelling around here and I was told that there's something mixed in to increase the the off road diesel's lubricating properties and some sort of algaecide is added to HHO but that's just word of mouth.
    We do the same - a lot of wholesalers and retailers are adding additives in, as it becomes more and more common knowledge that you have to put it in the fuel. It's cheaper to do it in large volumes, then it is quote 'in the tank'. A 250 gallon treat of power service costs about, $20 - or 8 cents a gallon.

    For us to buy it in 330 gallon tote tanks, at high level concentrates - it equals out to a little under 1 cent a gallon. But, 6 gallons of concentrate treats 8600 gallons of diesel.

    Some additive blenders are putting biocides in their blends, the problem still remains that they do not break the bacteria and water up. So, the bacteria might be dead - but still gets clogged up in the filters. The new fuel additives coming out on the market. Specifically, Gulf Brand's brand new fuel treat and possibly power services* new one. I have to look more into power services new one.

    I just got samples of Gulf's brand new (entirely new formula) today, developed specifically to treat these fuel issues. So I'm going to see how they work out. My power services samples should be here in the next few weeks.
    ~Fox
    Tractors: JD 2305 w/ MMM & 200CX, NH TN60A w/ 32LA loader, NH Boomer 2420, IH 806 Turbo (Restored, 1964), Farmall Super C (Restored(1952), MF 240S,IH Cub low-boy.

    Attachments... too many!

    Equipment - JD 317, CAT 262, JD 50ZTS, Cat 301.5, Cat 910, CAT 416C IT w/ EHOE, IH TD7E, IH T6(Restored w/ BE Blade package, 1948 w/ 1952 blade)

  8. #8
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    Default

    Foxtrot08, thanks for posting! It is amazing how hard it is to get good info about the fuel we use.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    i was reading through the original post and where you talked about the hot fuel being returned and mixed with the cold fuel in the tank made me think of my truck. i have an 06 gm gas and it doesn't have a replaceable fuel filter. i asked a mechanic friend about this when i found out that there were no fuel filter changes needed and he said it only pumped fuel on demand.

    i admit that with newer vehicles i take things for granted and never really bother myself to learn the inner workings of the vehicle until something breaks. i have a toyo direct vent kerosene heater in my shop and since it sits two feet off the floor it has a lift pump with a small reservoir. the furnace draws out of the reservoir as it burns and then the lift pump refills the reservoir as is needed. is this similar to how they are doing it in vehicles now? and is it likely to have a beneficial effect on the lifespans of our vehicles, or will poor fuel quality and no replaceable fuel filter be likely to cause more problems?

  10. #10
    Silver Member Foxtrot08's Avatar
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    Default Re: ULSD 101

    Gasoline and diesel are two very, very different beasts.

    In gasoline, you do not have the lubrication issues needed that diesel does. As well, gasoline is much more resistant to bacteria and water build ups, then diesel fuel is. Gasoline engines also do not heat up to the same point that diesel engines do, mostly because the way gasoline expands and could explode. The fuel gets warm - but a high pressure fuel line on a diesel engine will get much warmer. Mid summer, my fuel is returning to my tank at over 160 degrees at times. Gasoline engines tend to work at lower pressures on the fuel rails as well, which means cooler fuel and not as much 'return to tank' as diesels.

    To be honest, I am quite surprised your truck does not have a fuel filter somewhere on the frame rail. I know 03 GM trucks do, because I just changed one the other weekend.

    Worse can scenario, you have a screen inside of the tank which should catch and 'big' stuff, like rust of build ups. This could present an issue if it ever builds up enough to slow the amount of gasoline needed to run your engine. Could this present an issue down the road? Maybe, it's really hard to tell. Fuel filters really protect the inner workings of the injectors. If you run into injector issues, then yes - I would say a fuel filter would help correct them.

    As for your heater - I know on diesels yes, that is precisely how it works. My truck for example, has a low pressure fuel pump, that feeds the high pressure fuel pump. The low pressure fuel pump does not change speeds, it puts out X amount of fuel per minute. (I don't know how much, exactly.) It feeds a a second tank for the high pressure fuel pump to use. The high pressure pump, can go from 5000 PSI all the way up to 26000 PSI - using anywhere from 0 grams of fuel per stroke (how much the injectors allow in) all the way up to a 120 grams of fuel per stroke.

    Gasoline engines work the same way - but with a single, on demand pump that ramps up as the engine needs it.
    ~Fox
    Tractors: JD 2305 w/ MMM & 200CX, NH TN60A w/ 32LA loader, NH Boomer 2420, IH 806 Turbo (Restored, 1964), Farmall Super C (Restored(1952), MF 240S,IH Cub low-boy.

    Attachments... too many!

    Equipment - JD 317, CAT 262, JD 50ZTS, Cat 301.5, Cat 910, CAT 416C IT w/ EHOE, IH TD7E, IH T6(Restored w/ BE Blade package, 1948 w/ 1952 blade)

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