Engine diagnosis question (water in oil)

[Richard]

We've got an IH 886. Runs like a watch. Cutting a flat field several weeks ago, got a rear flat (dang it....)

We put onto flatbed & took to co-op. Tractor returned today. While I've been cutting the farm, I DO keep notice of dash gauges, temperatures and the like.... NEVER while me using this, has it overheated.

Radiator was full with nice green stuff

(historical information)

Today, get tractor back, brother in law...on a whim...checked engine oil. Seems was over full...

Checked radiator and it was essentially empty.

We drained the engine oil and then refilled the radiator... we ended up having a slow drip of "oil" coming out the drain plug. The first batch of 'oil' had already come to a 99% halt until adding water to the radiator.

So, those are the basic facts and other than the oil drain plug, not a single bolt was loosened or otherwise, taken apart.

Presumed diagnosis is, either through overheating (which again, I don't think ever happened) or perhaps through age (??) we're thinking the sleeves in this thing have broken their seal.

He told me this has wet sleeves in the cylinder and the sleeves had rubber O rings to seal the seperation of water and oil. We're guessing that either the engine overheated, perhaps hit a "hot spot" in the engine (for what ever reason) or maybe... one of the gaskets simply gave out from being 30 years old.

What I'm wondering is, given the above tidbits alone, since that's all I currently have.... does that sound reasonable?

If so.... how hard/expensive might it be to fix the sleeves? I presume we should replace all six instead of trying to find a bad "one" and maybe have future problems. (I'd rather spend more now to insure a full fix)

Can I do this while engine is mounted? The drain pan looks to be 100% removable from the underside so I'm thinking it can be done in the field.

Any special tools needed to pull the sleeve?

If we go this far (we might just sell the tractor as is) and decide to fix this, would it make sense to also do a valve job and new crank bearings at same time?

does this also typically involve new pistons & at minimum, rings? I'd suspect rings at minimum...not sure what I think about pistons.

Thanks for any thoughts

Oh....could it be something ELSE if not the sleeves?

 

[john_bud]

Well...... It's a tough diagnosis from here!!

But, I'll give it a go and hit the possible things.

First off, the deal with it going to the dealer getting a flat fixed is probably just a coincidence.

Next, that means that it has been slowly getting worse and you just noticed it. Or it means that it "popped" it's cork all of a sudden. Either one has equal likelyhood.

You can have;
a cracked head
blown head gasket
leaking sleeve
hole in sleeve (caused by cavitation of the coolant)
cracked block
loose head bolt

The cracked things are bad. Expensive to repair, unless you can find a donor engine.

Tractor engines are pretty easy to do a "minor" overhaul in the field (or barn). You will need to pull the head off first. Check the gasket and the head/block surface for signs of fluid spurting past. That would be my first guess. Bad head gasket.

If the gasket wasn't leaking, then you will need to check the head for a crack.

If a sleeve is leaking, you can find the bad one (sometimes) by filling the block with water and looking underneath. (oil pan off)

IF there is a hole in a sleeve, you may be able to see it looking down from the top or looking up from the bottom. Turn the crank by hand to see different parts of the cylinders.


WIth the head off, and the oil pan off, you are more than 1/2 way done with the rebuild. Just 2 nuts per rod to be undone. Rubber hammer to tap them apart. Wood dowl to push them up and out. If you have a ridge in the cylinder at the top, you will need to cut that out. Ridge reamer is the tool. Pretty cheap.

I would replace the rod bearings with the same size that was in there. Should be stamped on the back of the shell. New rings too.

The sleeve may need a tool to remove. It's like a threaded rod and attaches to the bottom of the sleeve and pulls them up and out. Eddie Walker made one from a treaded rod for an engine in his dozer. Not that hard to do.

I would also take the head to get the valves done. It's off, and that usually isn't very expensive.

Hopefully, it will be just a bad head gasket and you can fix it fast and cheap.

jb

 

[scott_vt]

Good Afternoon John,
For your # 5000 post I dont think you could have done a better job !!!

And Richard, John covered most everything that could possibly could have gone wrong, my only suggestion would be to post the same question over on the Farmall IH board on YT Tractors, those guys live sleep and eat on those tractors and might be able to offer another shred of valuable info !

 

[Richard]

First off, the deal with it going to the dealer getting a flat fixed is probably just a coincidence.

Next, that means that it has been slowly getting worse and you just noticed it. Or it means that it "popped" it's cork all of a sudden. Either one has equal likelyhood.

You can have;
a cracked head
blown head gasket
leaking sleeve
hole in sleeve (caused by cavitation of the coolant)
cracked block
loose head bolt

I concur on the probable coincidence. As for the other comments (first, thanks for replying!)

a cracked head: Easy enough to replace/fix I suppose (proper machine shop or parts shop?)

blown head gasket: Easy enough to replace

leaking sleeve: Getting more annoying to replace!

hole in sleeve (caused by cavitation of the coolant): This one is the cause of my question.... if there is currently a hole in a sleeve, would the tractor run "at all" or if so, would it run "smooth"??? in other words, wouldn't a hole in a sleeve cause some form of rough running? (if so, then that's ruled out)

cracked block: ugh

loose head bolt: My preference! but I'm never that lucky!!

Again, thanks for your time & thoughts

 

[Richard]

Actually, let me lay another question or so out...

If it was a head gasket or cracked head, letting water into the cylinder(s), wouldn't you get something showing out of the exhaust? Would the tractor again, run roughly with water being let into the cylinder(s)?

I'm hoping that "rules" out a cracked head/block....

Brother in law is suppsoed to be tracking a retired guy that he knows....Seems the guy used to work at a dealership and was an International mechanic!! That will be great if he can find the guy AND if the guy wants some 'weekend money'

 

[john_bud]

Actually, they can run pretty smooth with a small hole in the cylinder. WIth the head off, that cylinder and piston will be clean enough to eat off of where the others will have carbon deposites. You will see more steam out the exhaust on cold days and may smell antifreeze.

My gut tells me that it is probably not a cracked head or a cracked block and the IH's don't have a bad rep for cavitation (old fords do). That leaves loose bolt (not likely because it would be too easy to fix!), head gasket and sleeve o-ring failure. Diesels with the higher compression ratio show blown head gaskets different than gas engines. They often run perfect, but pressurize the coolant or blow it out the oil pan.

jb

ScottVT - thanks!

 

[Eagleview]

Often , a hole in a liner caused by electrolasis (sp?) is below the piston ring area which allows it to leak into the sump without getting into the combustion chamber . It also allows oil that is flung onto the bore by the crank to be pumped through the hole by the piston skirt . I'm not familliar with these tractors , do they have a heat exchanger that could be leaking ?

 

[RickB]

An 886 could have either a D358 or D360 engine. Both are wet-sleeved, but built on different parts of the planet and have different habits. A porous sleeve or bad o-ring is a good possibility for either, especially the D360. Best way to check for this is BEFORE removing the cylinder head. Remove the oilpan and pressurize the filled cooling system. Check for drips from the bottom of the cylinder sleeves. From inside a sleeve indicates a porous sleeve, from the outside edge of the sleeve indicates a block or sleeve O-ring. Coolant dripping from the cam indicates block, head or head gasket.

 

[art]

Rick and John have done a good job here. My vote would be for the sleeves leaking from cavatation, if you pull the pan with a pressure tester on the radiator you can tell.
Do you have the filter conditioner on the tractor engine? Have you been adding any additive? If you haven't then it more then likely is the cause as the additives in the anti freeze does wear out after a couple of years and it will allow the cavitation to begin.

 

[Soundguy]

Dang.. rick beat me to my reply of the pressurized radiator.. etc...

Post back what you find richard!

soundguy