AC and DC in same trench?

   / AC and DC in same trench? #41  
This has been an evolution in my thinking. Our power is out at least once a month, several times a year it is out for extended periods (> 3 hours). The prospect of spending $5K for a generator that never recouped any of my investment and only got used 1 week out of the year, or $10K for batteries doing the same thing, vs a solar install for $20K that might have a chance of paying itself off someday, I picked the solar install. I also am concerned about energy prices, nothing seems to get cheaper. I considered grid tied with no batteries and a generator, but one of the intangible costs of installing a generator for me is putting in a gas line under an existing driveway and turnaround, and through an area with old and valuable trees that I don't want to risk losing. So although batteries are an expensive backup system, they make sense for me.

I'm still debating the size of the battery bank, primary sticking point is whether or not we need to run the central air. My wife runs business out of our home, sees clients here, so if it's summer and we can't cool the house we lose money and good will by canceling patient appointments. There is also the uncertainty when power goes off of how long it will last- do we cancel the whole days appointments, or just the next few? We also have well and septic, so no power, no water and no flushing in the lower level, yuck. The cost for materials is going to be somewhere in the $20-25K range, we can sell back to the power company at about 6c/kwh, there'll be some savings on taxes for energy credit and the business "pays" via some fraction of the installation being a deductible business expense. In the long run will we ever get our money back, who knows, probably depends more on what happens with energy prices in the next 10-15 years.

My friend has a battery on his solar install that he did in the early 90s, it's still fine. Not sure if that's normal but my understanding is quality batteries last 15-20 years. Especially with newer chargers that monitor batteries and exercise them regularly.

Yes there's a way to keep the batteries charged and sell power back. My understanding is the way it actually works is the grid charges the batteries and the array feeds back to power company when power is on. When power goes off, array charges batteries and powers house. The batteries are also exercised on some regular basis so they experience some discharge. I'm having someone design the system, I don't know enough to do it myself. I met with the guy once, he asked lots of questions that we have to make up our mind on before we can actually buy anything or get a final design.


You can run an inverter from relatively small battery (or portable generator) parallel to your "solar" inverter. It will make the solar inverter think that the power is on (like on grid). It will run you house as long as the sun is shining.
You would have to sacrifice comfort at night though. To run your house from batteries all night without sacrifying comfort will require pretty large battery bank.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #42  
It's hard for me to imagine that you're getting a whole-house solar system, with battery bank, for $20k. When I priced a solar system for my home, even not counting air conditioning, it was something like $70k. Maybe the difference is the amount of sun we get.

Certified panels run about 90c/W lately.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench?
  • Thread Starter
#44  
You can run an inverter from relatively small battery (or portable generator) parallel to your "solar" inverter. It will make the solar inverter think that the power is on (like on grid). It will run you house as long as the sun is shining.
You would have to sacrifice comfort at night though. To run your house from batteries all night without sacrifying comfort will require pretty large battery bank.

I think that one of the devices he described acts like a transfer switch when the power goes off, so the array charges the batteries once the grid goes off. That was the reason I could buy fewer batteries for backup purposes if I bought the array at the same time rather than waiting until later. But I like your idea, maybe that's a cheaper way of accomplishing the same thing.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #45  
A customer that I was calling on last year (I don't do that job anymore) had built his personal array with an inverter on each panel. I'd really like to see his present performance #'s on that system, but even when I was doing that business full time, he was just about impossible to get a hold of. Talkative guy, just extremely busy.

His thinking was that when you have a string of DC panels, then you are only as efficient as the least efficient panel. Under a given sun source, one panel will put out the lowest current - that panel limits the max current for the DC string.

I follow his logic, and as a seasoned electrical contractor he wanted some real #'s to assess.

Given decent on-panel inverters, and appropriate down-stream AC wiring, I suspect his setup is more efficient than a "traditional" DC homerun-to-building-based inverter setup.

How much, don't know - but I made note of his approach to this system issue. If nothing else, I want to review the output specs of panels to see the output current vs. a reference light source.

What I don't know is the present day variation in output current, for a given model panel, across production volumes. If it is 2%, then the inverter-on-each-panel approach may not gain you much. If the variation is 20% or more, I'd be pricing a bulk buy on small industrial inverters.

I just pulled those last 2 percentages out of the air, but you get the idea I'm sure....

Installed costs have come down, even in Canada. I've seen whole house systems at around $35k - likely didn't include AirCon, but even so, for turnkey that doesn't seem bad.

Rgds, D.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench?
  • Thread Starter
#46  
It's hard for me to imagine that you're getting a whole-house solar system, with battery bank, for $20k. When I priced a solar system for my home, even not counting air conditioning, it was something like $70k. Maybe the difference is the amount of sun we get.

Well I haven't got anything yet, so maybe it's not believable. The rough breakdown was $7K for batteries, $10K for array, 5K for other stuff like charge controller, inverter, cable, subpanel, disconnect, yadee yadee. But that was a back of the envelope quote based on what I thought we needed. I'm doing all the work, other than paying an electrician to be here for the connection to comed.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #48  
I think that one of the devices he described acts like a transfer switch when the power goes off, so the array charges the batteries once the grid goes off. That was the reason I could buy fewer batteries for backup purposes if I bought the array at the same time rather than waiting until later. But I like your idea, maybe that's a cheaper way of accomplishing the same thing.

This is for off grid systems. The small battery fed inverter or small generator makes the big solar inverter think that it is on grid. There is a device (forgot how they called it) that integrates it all together. Not all inverters can be used this way though. I don't know details but read about such arrangement while ago.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #49  
A customer that I was calling on last year (I don't do that job anymore) had built his personal array with an inverter on each panel. I'd really like to see his present performance #'s on that system, but even when I was doing that business full time, he was just about impossible to get a hold of. Talkative guy, just extremely busy.

His thinking was that when you have a string of DC panels, then you are only as efficient as the least efficient panel. Under a given sun source, one panel will put out the lowest current - that panel limits the max current for the DC string.

I follow his logic, and as a seasoned electrical contractor he wanted some real #'s to assess.

Given decent on-panel inverters, and appropriate down-stream AC wiring, I suspect his setup is more efficient than a "traditional" DC homerun-to-building-based inverter setup.

How much, don't know - but I made note of his approach to this system issue. If nothing else, I want to review the output specs of panels to see the output current vs. a reference light source.

What I don't know is the present day variation in output current, for a given model panel, across production volumes. If it is 2%, then the inverter-on-each-panel approach may not gain you much. If the variation is 20% or more, I'd be pricing a bulk buy on small industrial inverters.

I just pulled those last 2 percentages out of the air, but you get the idea I'm sure....

Installed costs have come down, even in Canada. I've seen whole house systems at around $35k - likely didn't include AirCon, but even so, for turnkey that doesn't seem bad.

Rgds, D.

So called micro-inverters improve efficiency only marginally. But if the panels are not located in optimal position or there is a shading then they make big difference. They will increase cost of the system by about 10%. But if you build the system DIY I think it is way to go because you don't need to deal with 600 VDC able to produce 100A. The issue is that once the panels are connected and illuminated you can't turn them off. The micro-inverters automatically disconnect when the AC power (grid) is disconnected and can be disconnected from the panels just by pulling the connector. It is also easy to add panels because they don't have to be the same as panels already installed.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #50  
I remember the first micro-inverter coming out of Europe, I think it was a Dutch company, can't remember the name. I'd have to dig around in the Homepower archives.... darn my lousy memory.

They had a real following for stealth inter-tie generation, and from anything I read, a really solid design.

Need to read up on how these new "Smart" meters here play with these.... just a Note To Self.

Rgds, D.
 
 
Top