Another Electrical / Subpanel / Welder outlet Q

slowzuki · Oct 14, 2003

Hello, I am installing an outlet for my welder and plasmacutter. It is a 50 amp outlet in a weather tight shielded box and is the normal Nema 50 with L1, L2 and ground connections, no neutral.

I have a fuse panel in the house, with 200 amp breaker entrance, house was supposed to be electric heat

I was recently told I will need an inline GFI unit for the outlet because it is outside and the GFI is 260$.

The other option I was told would be to move the outlet inside. This seems stupid to me as I will be running the welder in the same location, no matter were the plug is.

Anyone have some thoughts?

The GFI has no effect on electrocuting one's self via the welding leads as the transformer electrically isolates them.

Best I can figure is if the inside of the case shorted to L1 or L2, the GFI would trip. But the case is well grounded so it is kind of a moot point?
Ken

Junkman · Oct 14, 2003

Re: Another Electrical / Sub pan / Welder outlet Q

any time an electrical outlet is outside of the house it must be protected by a ground fault circuit breaker. I don't know how the Canadian codes differ from the US codes, but I am sure that they are similar. One trick that you could do would be to create a sub panel in the garage and then take the outlet off of there. If you create a sub panel, remember that you will have to isolate the neutral and the ground wires to be correct with the codes..... I just went through the same thing and it was a nightmare to comply with all the applicable upgrades that were required since the house was built 20 years ago. I did all the work myself because in CT it is allowed...... otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to afford it...... materials alone were over $1000.... and the contractors wanted $5000 + to do the work.......

Gary_in_Indiana · Oct 14, 2003

This sounds like a question for Jerry (Inspector 507). I doubt he'll know Canada's codes but I'm sure he can tell you what will and won't work and the best way to go about it. He was very helpful to me when I was wiring my barn and later when wiring for my welder

DavidJ · Oct 14, 2003

<font color="blue"> The other option I was told would be to move the outlet inside. This seems stupid to me as I will be running the welder in the same location, no matter were the plug is. </font>

These rules don't cover everything but here's a shot at the reasoning. OK, I'm scareing myself! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

If you put the outlet inside you probably won't be welding while it's raining so the outlet doesn't get wet and leak current.

If the outlet is outside then even if you're not using it it's still energized leaving a potential hazard exposed, thus the need for GFI.

I know this doesn't make it any more sense but that's the way things are sometime.

Inspector507 · Oct 14, 2003

Thanks Gary for the vote of confidence.
The NEC® (which is now an International Electrical Code®) would not require a GFCI on a 250 volt outlet in any configuration.
Now, do the codes in Canada parallel this? I have no idea. But anywhere in the US that follows the NEC®, a GFCI would not be needed.
Hope this helps

Jerry

BrentB · Oct 14, 2003

If you do have to install a GFCI, I just bought a subpanel with 50 amp GFCI packaged for use for a hot tub for $90 at Menards. They said to go Square D brand would cost over $100 for the breaker alone.

Inspector507 · Oct 14, 2003

As slowsuki mentioned, the welder may be electrically isolated, secondary from primary, so the only way a GFCI protected outlet would help is, grabbing the prongs while you plug it in.
So, in my humble opinion, a GFCI would not help, not matter what it cost or where you bought it.

slowzuki · Oct 14, 2003

I will check the Canadian Electrical Code tomorrow, I think it is modeled after the NEC. Any clue on the location of the info re 250 V outlets don't require GFI? It would be appreciated!

Ken

Inspector507 · Oct 14, 2003

Sure Ken,
Article 210-8 of the NEC® has all the requirements for GFCI protection for personnel. Article 210-8 says that all 120 volt, 15 and 20 ampere outlets (outdoors among some other places) shall have GFCI protection for personnel. Then if you look in Article 527, for temporary wiring, they added 30 ampere outlets, but no where does it mention a 50 ampere outlet.
Hope this helps

Jerry