saga of neat neighbor & survey

[patrickg]

After having put a fence what looked like ten feet onto my property my neighbor put me on his s--t list for pointing it out. He got all spun up and hired a surveyor. Asked me to pay half to which I agreed with provisions that I get a copy of the surveyors report and a copy of the document to which they surveyed. I got neither after weeks passed the completion of the survey.

My surveyor appointment finally arrived and I got an independent survey. Would anyone but me be surprised that they didn't bring a transit??? All electronic, computerized, and nearly fully automated. They use GPS and carry additional rceivers on their pole/wand and another receiver in a backpack that the matching transmitter is set up couple hundred yds away from point of interest with another GPS feening that. Anyway they guarantee fractional inch accuracy. They placed their pins over 5 ft from previous pins neighbor was relying on.

Seems all sections of land are not created equal. One sq mile is 640 acres but not all sections are precisely a mile by a mile. Some are larger some smaller and by a fair margin. To locate the NW/4 of the NW/4 of section xx of range yy of township zz requires finding the mid point of the mid point, not blindly assuming 1320 ft (quarter mile). There was the difference. The pins placed as a result of cutting out a 150x350 ft lot out of a 160 acre (more or less) quarter section were not placed in accordance with the legal description because of the assumption of 1320 ft being one fourth of the section (which is in fact oversized and I got more land than I thought).

I was not happy when the first location was marked and it was over 5 ft from the pin both my neighbor and I thought was OK. This would move the other N-S line to the east aout 5 ft obsoleting over 300 ft of nice pipe fence. I was prepared to just abandon all existing fence, put up new fence on THE correct lines but that would be a real contentious thing as there might be grandfather issues regarding the old survey. And this guys side yard is so narrow they asked several times to buy some footage and I just didn't think it was a nice thing to do (even to a total ^**&^%) it would have made his side yard over 5 ft narrower and have my cows 5 ft closer to his bedroom. I know it is only 5 ft but would be a big % of change and I am extremely slow to be pushed to doing anything to someone just because they are doing things to me. Let them live to their standards and I will live to mine as long as I can.

Original survey was pretty good except for two things they are all about 5 ft too far west and the pins at rear of his lot cheat him out of 6 inches or so. I told him I would fence according to where I thing the line should be so he gets all he should NOT where the pins are because I want him to get every grain of dust he has legally comming to him, then fence him in on three sides and ignore him in perpetuity if he will only let me.

Now I have to find out how to have my deed reworded in the less and except part potentially without the cooperation of the neighbor who would probably try to extort some concession for his cooperation just so noting contentious would happen in the future should wither of us sell or something. I just want to really know that I can put in a fence and have it stand any legal challenge, I don't really care one iota where his 150x350 is located under his house.

Anyone ever try to get something changed slightly in wording on a deed to have it make sense or agree with reality and long accepted use?

Patrick

 

[RPM]

I had a problem with a man and a hedge that was somewhat similar. It is not easy to do this - I just know that you're going to enjoy the process!

First one must realize that the people who record deeds and authorize changes know absolutely nothing about surveying or even have the faintest familiarity with things like 'degrees', compass directions or other units of measure.

What they DO know about is how to cover themselves.

What I was told I had to do ... (be aware this is county specific for me - but it may be of help in your state / county)

- Get a surveyor in to survey the property. Clearly mark the property boundaries (may be difficult if they encroach on a neighbor /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif). Get the surveyor to drive stakes in as far as they darned well can - these things tend to go missing. Ideally place large rocks near the survey points, chain junkyard dogs to them etc.
- Have the surveyor draw up their report - and tell them to have it worded with the intent of replacing the property description on your deed. They may run it past their legal counsel / attorney.
- Work with your attorney on a letter to ALL of the landholders whose property abuts yours, notifying them of the survey, to go and look at the stakes - and your intent to change your deed. You may also want to refer to where the property lines lay relative to immovable objects (e.g. 80ft Redwood) in case the stakes go 'missing'. Send the letter to your neighbors by FedEx / recorded delivery.
- Allow a reasonable time period (say, 90 days) for them to conduct their own surveys and challenge your own.

After all this, have your attorney package up the information, note the nature of any response from your neighbors (assuming all good) and have it sent to your county/state recorder of deeds.

Now wait a while ... months probably!!

The difficulty for me was even finding out who the 'recorder' was. In the end I abandoned the process after the initial survey. The hemlock hedge in question was diseased with woolly adelgids and planted on my side of the property line - neighbor said it was his hedge. I cut it down anyway - hey I was moving house and it was an eyesore! Saved myself the legal fees too.

Patrick

 

[gws]

Apparently you not in a very rural area if you
1) have neighbors that close
2) are worried about a couple of feet of land.

MY mom named me Gary.

 

[Joesgoats]

I live in a rural/suburban part of Mass. and had my boundaries surveyed a couple of years ago. The main reason was that we knew our neighbors had encroached on a reasonable piece of our property. It is a hammerhead lot (a descriptive name!) so there's a long neck down to road frontage which they were using as part of their front yard.

In the process I learned a couple of things. Surveyors usually try to "close" a survey, in other words, make all the legal descriptions when physically measured meet at each corner. For some reason they were off by a couple of inches at the back boundary, which was irrelevant. I'm facinated by your description, because I can't see how the two adjacent surveys could both have closed, since they overlap.

What is relevant to your situation is what my lawyer told me. After some period of time (I think it varies by state) possession or use of your property by your neighbor may convey a right to that piece of property, especially if it is "contested" possession (ie., you've told them or asked them not to use your land). The way to ensure this doesn't happen is to fence it so they can't use it ("good fences make good neighbors") or get some sort of legal agreement with them that they are only using it with your permission. In your case the latter may not be possible.

Let us know how it transpires.

Joe

 

[Bill_Ryan]

We must be "lucky" here in New Hampsha.....most of our boundary lines are marked with rock walls (sorta hard to move and pretty plain to see).

But I've still heard of several boundary disputes in the area....go figure.

Bill

 

[patrickg]

RPM,

Thanks for advice and comments, I'll proceed with caution but it is nice to know if I mess up and get sued that I have documented evidence that will get you named in the suit as well. Thanks, I need all the help I can get.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Not rural? None of the nearest 10-12 towns have a population over a thousand. Most under 500 some way under. Nearest WallMart over 20 miles, next nearest, 25, next nearest 30 (one to south , then north, then west.

My neighbor has a lot sized 150x350. My land surrounds him on three sides. I need to fence it for running cattle.

1. Neighbor doesn't want any fence around his place but has preexisting (predates both our occupancies) pipe fence beside and behind him.

2. Has flat told me he won't let me put up barbed wire, economical for me not desired by him.

3. Has stalled me for over two years with the , "he will help me put up a pipe fence story". See 1 above.

I told him I would put up barbed wire and as he replaed it with pipe I'd take the barbed wire down. Not acceptable to him. I said I'd toss in the cost of the barbed wire fence toward the pipe to make a pipe fence and do the welding myself and toss in over 200 ft of pipe for some of the postss (not enough but significant contribution) not acceptable to him.

I am being stone walled. Before proceeding under a condition of maximum contention, I thought a survery was waranted. Unfortunately the deed's instructions (followed meticulously) misses the original pins 5 ft making his side yard go from poor to riciculously close to his house. I don't want to do that to anyone whether or not I could. I want to use the original pins which mark the right size rectangle (and closely resemble what he thought was his property line) to be used but unfortunately that will require changing my deed and maybe his. Of course by not cooperating he can delay me more which is apparently what he wants. See 1 above.


So, what would you do? How would you explain to him that if this is a rural area not to worry about 5 ft x 350 ft?

Patrick

 

[Von]

Patrick,
If it were me I would put the barbed wire fence on the right lot line and tell him to go screw! its your property, and you have the right to do with it as you see fit. Remember, nice guys finish last! I am having a dispute with two neighbors here at my antique shop. Because this property was forclosed on by the bank, and held for 3 years. The two neighbors took it on them selfs to increase thier yards on the ajointing property (now mine). One went as far as bringing in a backhoe and take off topsoil for his yard! The other had put his hidden fence for his dog about 30 yards over the line. I wrote both of them the following letter:



"This is to inform you that you are cutting grass on my property. I have no problems with you continuing to do so, but by allowing you to cut the grass I am not giving up any of my rights, ownership or title to such property. Also I am not granting you any rights or ownership to said property. You have no rights to use my property for any reason. You may not park, store, plant or place anything on my property. You may not construct any fences or remove any trees on my property. Any cutting that you do, you do at your own expense and at your own risk. I am not responsible for any cost or injury that you may incure while cutting said property. If you have any questions regarding this matter feel free to contact me. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter."



Since getting the letter they have both stopped cutting the grass and now are trying to have the village get after me for not cutting the grass. This was an area that had not been cut for over 4 years, and I mow it with a rotory cutter about once a month to keep it under control. But that isn't good enough for them. I am going to put up posted signs right on the line this week, lets see how they Like looking at those! I have been nice to them all along, but I will not allow anyone to take advantage of me. I paid alot of money for this property and pay high taxes, I 'll be damned if I am going to be pushed around on my own land! There is about 2 1/2 ac. and it is well behind my shop so no one else sees it. (see attached photo) Neighbors are at the top of the hill.

 

[patrickg]

These neighbors used to mow the grass well over onto my property and complain that I didn't. Bougt a tractor since and mowed it once in 3-4 months. It is getting harder and harder to see their windows from where I usually go about on my place. They have been taking there riding mower outside their lot and mowing a 50 ft wide or so strip to keep the cows from grazing up to the fence. That too will be shut down once I get them fenced in.

I appreciate what you are saying. I'm not acting in retrobution or being mean or too easy. I will treat them fairly, ensuring they get all the land to which the "less and except" part of my deed says they are entitled and maybe an inch or so more. I will not let their antics and attitude dictate my actions nor precipitate any precipitous action on my part. If for any reason this should go to court I wil be able to demonstrate that I have been fair and honest beyond a minimum of legal. My morals are not negotiable at the behest of those creatures.

If I wasn't such a "nice guy" I could put in a pig fence and run a hundred hogs imediately up the prevailing wind from them. This is agricultural land and they could just pound sand. My moms house is a few hundred yds away and my new house will be more like a quarter mile away so the aroma wouldn't effect me and mine. Ever hear guinnea fowl or pea fowl? Loud and obnoxious. I could buy some and put coops near the property line. They haven't even gotten close to attracting that kind of attention from me.

Patrick

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Von,
I've seen your picture before and I've been meaning to ask, what digital camera took this?... the picture is super sharp.. and so is your property... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif