4610 PTO stopped working

[JC-jetro]

Don't worry about a column of air in the hose, we are not troubleshoting a nuclear reactor

Good one Rick, I'll sure make a note of it for future reference.

JC,

 

[jinman]

I did not think about throttling down before disengaging the pto and am glad to learn this. I will probably get a chance to get a gage and adaptors Monday and do some checks.

Dudley, several of us have similar PTO clutch/brakes on our tractors. The work great when you take care of them, but there is no way to know how your tractor was used before you bought it. I always lower the rpm and feather the lever to engage the PTO. I know the exact position where the clutch will start to engage when the tractor is cold and when it is warm. I also always throttle down to idle before disengaging. I'm hoping my extra care makes the clutch/brake last a very long time. However, I have had tree limbs move the lever while operating and didn't realize it until the cutter quit under load. I'm sure that slipping didn't do any good to the clutch, but it wasn't that long either.

I can't add anything to the already great troubleshooting advice you have received. I hope you get to the bottom of these issues soon and get to use that tractor longer between breakdowns.

 

[tallyho8]

Today I bought a pressure gage and attachments to check the pressures for the pto control valve and pressure regulator valve.

The recommended pressure is 220 psi at 2300 rpm and 200 at 1000 rpm with the pto lever disengaged and higher when engaged.

My reading is 190 psi at 2300 rpm and 180 at 1000 rpm with it disengaged and 250 psi at 2300 rpm with it engaged.

What do the experts say about these readings?

IMO, knowing practically nothing about hydraulics, I think that these readings are close enough for it to perform well if there was not something else broken.

The pto hydraulics are supposed to turn on the pto brake when the lever is disengaged and engage the pto clutch and release the pto brake when the lever is engaged.

The pto hydraulics are turning on the pto brake when the lever is disengaged and releasing the pto brake when the lever is engaged but my pto is not turning.

I am fearing that this means that my pto clutch must have broken teeth or some other mechanical broken part that means that my tractor must be split.

I know of no other tests I can perform and I surely can not split this tractor to rebuild the pto clutch.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me?

If the tractor must be split and the pto clutch rebuilt, does anyone know ABOUT how much a NH dealer would charge?

 

[JC-jetro]

Today I bought a pressure gage and attachments to check the pressures for the pto control valve and pressure regulator valve.

The recommended pressure is 220 psi at 2300 rpm and 200 at 1000 rpm with the pto lever disengaged and higher when engaged.

My reading is 190 psi at 2300 rpm and 180 at 1000 rpm with it disengaged and 250 psi at 2300 rpm with it engaged.

What do the experts say about these readings?

IMO, knowing practically nothing about hydraulics, I think that these readings are close enough for it to perform well if there was not something else broken.

The pto hydraulics are supposed to turn on the pto brake when the lever is disengaged and engage the pto clutch and release the pto brake when the lever is engaged.

The pto hydraulics are turning on the pto brake when the lever is disengaged and releasing the pto brake when the lever is engaged but my pto is not turning.

I am fearing that this means that my pto clutch must have broken teeth or some other mechanical broken part that means that my tractor must be split.

[/B]

Wow, sometimes it pours when it rains, Sorry for your string of bad lucks lately. I'm sure Rick will pop in soon to to give his analysis.

1-To me if you are maintaing 250 psi with the pto clutch engaged means that your "ringseal" is okay, no blow by and doing it's thing. That means squeezed in pto clutch disks pack so both input shaft and out put shaft should turn at the same time.

2-If the clutch disk is bad or broken, then I would be expecting to hear some extra noise when you engage the pto which you have not indicated so.

3-One possibility may be the hollow pto input shaft from main clutch is not turning due to shaft spline being chewed up or not meshing with the PTO counter shaft.

4-Another possibility may be that pto shaft after the clutch is twisted off like the picture below, but saying that the pto brake still works much lessens that potential.

I hope someone wiser can come up with a better explanation and a cure to avoid a tractor split.


JC,

 

[RickB]

Today I bought a pressure gage and attachments to check the pressures for the pto control valve and pressure regulator valve.

The recommended pressure is 220 psi at 2300 rpm and 200 at 1000 rpm with the pto lever disengaged and higher when engaged.

My reading is 190 psi at 2300 rpm and 180 at 1000 rpm with it disengaged and 250 psi at 2300 rpm with it engaged.

What do the experts say about these readings?

IMO, knowing practically nothing about hydraulics, I think that these readings are close enough for it to perform well if there was not something else broken.

The pto hydraulics are supposed to turn on the pto brake when the lever is disengaged and engage the pto clutch and release the pto brake when the lever is engaged.

The pto hydraulics are turning on the pto brake when the lever is disengaged and releasing the pto brake when the lever is engaged but my pto is not turning.

I am fearing that this means that my pto clutch must have broken teeth or some other mechanical broken part that means that my tractor must be split.

I know of no other tests I can perform and I surely can not split this tractor to rebuild the pto clutch.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me?

If the tractor must be split and the pto clutch rebuilt, does anyone know ABOUT how much a NH dealer would charge?

I am not an expert, but I seldom shy away from an opportunity to submit an opinion.
I agree your pressures are close enough to allow the system to operate substantially as though all pressures were within spec.

Given a careful reading of how the PTO output shaft "behaves" in various operational states, I think it is safe to say that either the drive splines on the clutch discs have failed, or the discs are worn to the point that the stack height is too short for the piston to lock up the discs and plates. Given the audible noise and abrupt failure, My take is the splines failed.

There are no further tests that would reveal anything we don't already know. The hydraulic pump is functioning, that tells us the PTO clutch drive hub is turning. The output shaft is connected to the PTO clutch basket as evidenced by the different feel to the shaft with the brake off/on. The pressures are reasonable. Therefore, the power is interrupted within the clutch itself. A rear split is required.

I don't place myself in the position of estimating jobs for other shops to complete. I hope you understand my position on that.

 

[tallyho8]

I thank everyone for their answers now I must decide what to do. Whether to sell this tractor as is and take a huge loss on it and get another one or pay big bucks to get it fixed and hope the same thing doesn't happen again.

I have been a Ford man all my life but have never had a Ford tractor before and this one has given me a bad taste for Fords. I have owned Yanmar and International tractors for over 20 years without ever having to spend over $20 to get them repaired.

The seller may have sold me a dog but I doubt if there was any way he could have known that the pto clutch was getting ready to go because it did not slip and besides the abrupt engagement, it seemed to work fine until it broke.

If I keep this tractor the first thing I must do is buy a larger trailer ($2500)because mine is too narrow for it to fit on to bring it to a repair shop. Next I have to search adjoining towns for a reliable tractor repair shop as my local NH dealer doesn't even answer his phone.

My wife is already telling me I should have bought a new one but it seemed like she liked the idea of me getting a cheaper one before this one broke.

 

[Soundguy]

I am not an expert, but I seldom shy away from an opportunity to submit an opinion. .

We all have an opinion sometimes.. but.. I think it's safe to say that for all intents and purposes.. you are an expert. too much evidence here and in the 'other' forum to not say so.

soundguy

 

[JC-jetro]

We all have an opinion sometimes.. but.. I think it's safe to say that for all intents and purposes.. you are an expert. too much evidence here and in the 'other' forum to not say so.

soundguy

Double ditto on that. Chris , I consider you and few others in the same league as well. It is a good place here to be a sponge to soak it all in

JC,

 

[mattman]

I have a 4000 that has about the same pto clutch setup as you do. I found mine to have a sealing problem where the clutch pack goes into the pto support/pto brake. the support was wore down as well as the metal sealing rings the ride on the clutch pack and seal into the support. Also had some of the friction discs wore down. I knew I had a sealing problem, I shot air down the pipe that goes from the pto control valve to the clutch assembly. I could hear air leaking out big time there was no doubt what my problem was. You will probably see the problem as soon as you pull the tractor apart and remove clutch assembly. my 2 cents