Tractor Sizing Almost Daily Thread: SUBCOMPACT or COMPACT TRACTOR?

[Industrial Toys]

I used an 8N here once loaned to me but never owned one. I was wondering if they had a Def lock. Not having one, would be a definite liability. I get the impression that few people realize the value of large wheels.

 

[jeff9366]

I have 13 acres of mostly woods and just enough grass for a push mower (no tractor mowing needed). The property has lots of water issues and trails that need constant maintenance. I also have 200 yard long, crushed limestone driveway with a large parking lot like area near my garage

I currently own a BX23S front loader / backhoe combo and it works really well but its a bit small for what I do. I purchased my BX in 2017 because I thought I wanted a small tractor that could fit into tight places. This happens on occasion but I am more often wishing for a machine with more loader/backhoe power. I almost exclusively use the font loader. No grass mowing.

My very near-term projects include digging a hole for a swimming pool, digging several ditches, driveway maintenance with 2A stone and digging a deep garage addition footer. If I had a machine that could do it, I would also dig up a few stumps around the house as needed. In the winter, I blow my driveway with a rear blade but at 200 yards, wet, heavy snow can be a challenge.

VIDEO: Kubota B26�1 VS Kubota B265� - YouTube


You should also consider Kubota's B26, the lightest of Kubota's "commercial" T-L-Bs.

VIDEO: Comparing Kubota TLB series tractors(B26, L47, M62) - YouTube


The fundamental importance of TRACTOR WEIGHT eludes many tractor shoppers. Heavier tractor weight is more important for most tractor applications than increased tractor horsepower. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models, new and used.

Within subcompact and compact tractor categories, a significant tractor capability increase requires a bare tractor weight increase of 50%. It takes a 100% increase in bare tractor weight to elicit MY-OH-MY!

So you want to TRADE UP for a new Tractor? - TMT - YouTube


Five reasons owner/operators trade up from Subcompact Tractors:
More tractor weight.
More FEL lift capacity.
More ground clearance.
Three-range (3) HST (Lower LOW, Higher, HIGH) ~~ rather than two-range (2) HST.
Larger wheels and tires yield more tractive power pulling ground contact implements and logs, pushing a loader bucket into dirt and pushing snow. Larger wheels and tires permit heavier tractors to bridge holes, ruts and tree debris with less operator perturbation.

 

[rScotty]

No, this has nothing to do with you. He's been like this since day 1. At least one wall of text per day = Jeff. Gives him purpose. Same thing with preaching to people about putting in their location. And preaching about posters must use full and proper punctuation in every post(FOR RESPECT!).

Don't feel singled out. He's our poster child.

Slim, I think you forgot to mention "The Importance of Tractor Weight" along with "Location". So I'll make sure to add it just in case it gets overlooked....

I'm not one for putting anything into categories with exact definitions myself. I prefer thinking about what is unique and different for each poster rather than what is the same.

But it doesn't bother me when someone else does things differently. Live and let live or ignore; all the same diff.
rScotty

 

[Diggin It]

I prefer thinking about what is unique and different for each poster rather than what is the same.

That's something that some ONE doesn't seem to get. 'Course they don't seem to think there's anything out there besides orange either.

 

[/pine]

IMO, The OP seems to be missing the big picture with the rhetorical pasted comments...
Discussing all the logic of weight/traction when it comes to new (first time) tractor operators is a moot point for the most part...

Unless and until a new operator actually experiences a lack of traction while performing actual tasks they will simply not understand the significance...
A new operator may put many hours on a machine before they encounter a condition where the weight of the tractor makes a significant difference...

IMO, It's poor advice to recommend buying a heavier machine just because every once in a while an operator may encounter a task where a bigger heavier machine is better suited...

All the test driving and studying the technical specs of a tractor will never equate to actual seat time experience...

When it comes to compact tractors and correctly sized implements...The main difference between a bigger, heavier machine and the compact as it applies to traction is the time required to do the same exact work...

Advising someone to buy a big heavy machine just because every once in a while they may encounter a task where a bigger machine would do the work quicker...is just bad advice...

A new (first time) tractor owner should be aware of the majority of the work they intend to do and buy accordingly...and NOT buy a bigger machine because occasionally they have to take more time to complete a task that a bigger tractor could do in less time....

 

[jeff9366]

Multiple reasons owner/operators trade up from Subcompact Tractors:

More tractor weight.

More FEL lift capacity.

More ground clearance.

Three-range (3) HST (Lower LOW, Higher, HIGH) ~~ rather than two-range (2) HST.

Larger wheels and tires have a larger tire/tread "patch" in contact with the soil. Larger wheels and tires bridge small holes, ruts and tree debris maintaining traction, which stall subcompact tractors. As a result, larger wheels/tires yield more tractive power pulling ground contact implements and logs, pushing a loader bucket into dirt and pushing snow. Larger wheels and tires decrease operator perturbation operating over rough ground.

 

[jeff9366]

Ground clearance due to larger wheels and tires is the single greatest difference in tractor specs between (all brands) of Subcompact tractors and the lightest Compact tractors. Larger wheels and tires permit compact tractors to bridge holes, ruts and tree debris with less operator perturbation relative to subcompact tractors. One can mow a field faster with larger wheels and tires. One of two mph with larger wheels/tires will significantly reduce field mowing time.

 

[Ricn]

Small is well, small. BX and others in this class should be used in that manor least we break them or ourselves. My local tractor mechanic guy works on them lots saying, they come in very abused and often with little maintenance preformed. Yeah, there are those who use them hard without issues but maybe their the lucky ones? but I too have a use for a sub tractor as the big ones we have can be to big at times. As for all the posts what to buy what to buy, sub or compact, its my opinion there are as many salesman or dealers on this site as actual tractor owners and this fuels all the responses to the same old questions. Now, if my Wife would let me I'd go buy the sub compact today, BX maybe, LS MT-125 really has my interest as well, but no backhoe on either.

 

[jeff9366]

It is my opinion there are as many salesman or dealers on this site as actual tractor owners and this fuels all the responses to the same old questions.

From daily observation, outside of clearly identified ADVERTISERS, there is only one employed tractor professional posting on T-B-N regularly. There are, however, a large body of writers who use tractors on an almost daily basis, myself included.

 

[stevem5215]

I'm not a dealer and for sure I have different units running for different things. No one machine does it all well. And cost is a factor. Cheaper won't get you what a better more expensive unit can.

Here's my reply from another thread in here. Still applies to this one too.

A ZTR with a suspension seat is a minimum for a rough pasture cut. A ZTR with a full suspension system like a vehicle has is better yet. Balloon tires on some ZTR's also help but suspension is better. The new easy ride system from Toro is new this year and it adds suspension as an option (cheaper versions are available without of course). All that said, I have four mowers here. I have a Black Craftsman Professional model with a 24hp engine and the cheap Hydro gear K46 tranny that's not very good. But it has foot control and that's really a great feature one i highly recommend. It does a good job of actually cutting grass though. And it has a rear two bag catcher system that actually works very well except in wet grass. Damp ok but wet forget it due to clogs. It's been a good mower and i have it "on loan" to a friend during the summer months as he can barely walk these days so i let him use it and then get it back in the fall so i can suck up the leaves here. As for repairs, I replaced the transmission drive belt once and serviced the K46 tranny with new 5w-50 synthetic fluid (had the typical barely moving hydro problem) and have replaced the valve covers once (they were leaking oil) along with a couple of spark plugs once and a headlight socket and bulb once as they wear due to vibration. A new battery once too of course (still running that battery 8 years later due to keeping it on a tender in the winter months and topping the water up as needed).

I also have a Simplicity ZT 2500 24hp with front suspension only and a 48" fabricated deck with Gator blades and dual ZT 2800 transmissions. That setup was a great deal at only $3000 new (after $400 Simplicity rebate in the springtime). It cuts the grass very well I'd say and especially is better with those Gator blades as it handles heavy/tall grass dispersion better. It works better of course when the grass is dry and not even damp at all. The 24hp Briggs commercial engine is good and I've had that one for about 5 years now with the only issue being a bar that cracked that held the transmission mounting points (there's two of the exact same bars and one cracked). It broke on the 3rd year while under warranty but the bars were on Nationwide back order so i just took it to my favorite welding guy and he welded it up and it's not broken since. And the other replacement finally came and is sitting in a box in my garage (took 3 months to come in). That bar was a simple fix. Just 4 bolts hold it in and pulls out the bottom side. Otherwise that mower has had no issues at all. Runs good and has a EFI system of some type on it. The ride quality of this mower is good and was better than that of the Black Craftsman mower. It was an incremental improvement that was nice when i got it. The ZT2800 transmissions have been better and I've done a couple of services on them since they have drain and fill plugs along with spin on filters. (hence the reason to get these better transmissions) It does about 7mph full throttle across the field when cutting. (level no hills light loads on the mower deck when cutting) Otherwise at full speeds it's bumpy. ZTRs in general are bumpy ride cause you can go so fast. And hence why you buy one with suspension of some kind. It's important.

My third mower is also the newest. A Simplicity ZTR Citation XL 61" fab deck with a 27hp Briggs commercial engine and ZT 3400 transmissions. This one has full suspension front and rear and it'll do 11mph across the field. That's moving let me tell you. And it's easiest on the body without a doubt. I call it the Cadillac ride. It's really great to use. You can cut full throttle and at 61" you are really doing some damage to get done QUICKER. It probably has cut my cutting time in 1/2 to 2 hrs vs 4 hrs with other mower used. Previously i used a Ford 1900 with a 72" deck. That sounds like a great combination doesn't it ? I mean wow a 72" deck would seriously cut down cutting time. Nope not really. It can't cut things that fast. It was a 30hp diesel machine with a rear discharge deck. It left clippings more so than i liked to see on heavy grass and if I tried to cut with it fast it threw me all over the place and cut even worse. Nope, I loved having that tractor but it wasn't a great mowing machine like a ZTR gets you. Even the Black Craftsman cut quality was far better (I put Gator blades on it too). As a result the 1900 was gone last spring and in came the Citation to replace it. And it's been far better for my tastes (and the wife loves it too and saves her back for doing more fun things like tooth brushing the grout on the floor ! lol). So far it's been reliable too. Nothing yet but it's only on it's second year. Unlike the Craftsman that's on it's 12th year!

I also have another machine for cutting but it's just a "backup". I have a Steiner 420 AWD articulating sub compact tractor. It has a 48" mower deck and uses low pressure high flotation tires along with a criss-cross hydro drive system to not tear up the grass in the yard. I mostly use it for loader work (sub compact loader that handles about 700lbs max) and also i use a rotating brush to clear the driveway of snow in the winter. Advantage of it is that I don't use ANY salt on my driveway. It can clear snow down to the pavement and the sun clears the rest of it off. I have the cleanest driveway in the winter months here. It's always bare and dry by 10am. As for summer use, I have used it a couple times to cut the grass but that front mount deck just blows grass all over you i found. It's really annoying so i don't use it much. A mid deck blows stuff too but it's mostly behind you by the time it catches the wind. And at 10mph it never hits you! lol
The Steiner isn't new and is a 1994 model with a Onan 20 Performer engine. It's very reliable. I have had a few problems with it over the years I've had it. MOstly simple things like plug wires and new spark plugs along with a charging problem with the Molex connections they used back in 94' which weren't very long term reliable and corroded due to their unprotected nature in this application (auto type connections weren't used in tractors till later years probably due to this reason) But, mostly it's been reliable for me. I have the hydro system serviced every 5 years or so and use only the STeiner hydro fluid as it's proven to be reliable without issues or questionable fluid life like other manufacturers supplied for this application. I can't really complain at all about it. It wasn't a cheap machine to buy but it's been a good machine. And where else can you have the cleanest driveway in the neighborhood ? Without a lot of work? I can have it cleared in the winter in 15 minutes. 400ft plus turnaround area at top. That's big.

So, all that said. I highly recommend a ZTR. And get a ZTR with suspension. One without it isn't going to save any time cutting and you might as well just buy a Home Depot or Lowe's tractor. As for price, more $$ gets you more machine. It's worth it IMO. Same holds true for regular tractors too. And always buy one step up from what you think you need. Bigger never hurts. Smaller does!

Steve