B2400 starting problem finally solved

[Gator6x4]

Yeah, verily. I just assumed there was a similar Kubota relay being replaced by the Deere. Since there is not, it seems extremely likely that the the Deere relay is reducing the voltage drop between the battery and the solenoid which apparently makes a difference.

Since the Kubota certainly has a solenoid (which I hear closing) one wonders why the solenoid has trouble being energized and yet we hear it (?) I guess I need to find a circuit diagram instead of making "normal" assumptions. Has anyone posted a diagram?

The click no start has been around for years. I purchased a Cub Cadet 2084 in 1993 and after about two weeks it developed the problem. Repair people would say live with it we cannot find anything wrong. Then I met an old retired engineer whose hobby was solving electrical problem on vehicles.

After some study he advised the problem was being caused by safety relays wired into the system to prevent people from getting off the mower when running and sticking their hand under the mowing deck to remove clumps of wet grass or backing up over some child.

He advised the click no start was being caused by a true 12+ Volt signal not being sent to the starter solenoid. He advised by incorporating a relay into the system wired so the weak signal coming from the ignition switch collapsed the relay to ground which would then send a true 12+ volt to the starter solenoid and the unit would then start. He wired a relay into the start circuit of the Cub Cadet 2084 and it has been starting correctly every since. The John Deere relay kit mentioned previously came out later. Cub Cadet also came out with a kit.

Here is a wiring diagram provided to me by someone that also addresses how to wire a relay into the starting system to eliminate the click no start problem. The relay and fuse holder can be purchased from any local auto parts store. The auto parts store can also provide the wiring. Use the diagram if you want to eliminate the click no start problem.View attachment No start wiring diagram.jpg

 

[JWR]

Gator6x4, thanks for the input. Good info. Based on your diagram the relay is providing "more" current to the solenoid. That clearly indicates that (for whatever reason) the solenoid is not getting adequate current during starting at times. One would have to think it is marginal all the time and just "working most of the time" without the relay. Apparently any means of providing more current to the solenoid during initial start triggering works and from all the anecdotes from many people, works well. My remaining puzzle is why, then, does tapping on the starter also clear the problem for the moment? Maybe multiple issues or maybe that just moves the brushes or connections inside the starter a tiny bit allowing more current flow? Seems far fetched. I'm really wanting to discuss this with my Amish friends in the starter/generator/motor repair business. Good discussion !

 

[Gator6x4]

Gator6x4, thanks for the input. Good info. Based on your diagram the relay is providing "more" current to the solenoid. That clearly indicates that (for whatever reason) the solenoid is not getting adequate current during starting at times. One would have to think it is marginal all the time and just "working most of the time" without the relay. Apparently any means of providing more current to the solenoid during initial start triggering works and from all the anecdotes from many people, works well. My remaining puzzle is why, then, does tapping on the starter also clear the problem for the moment? Maybe multiple issues or maybe that just moves the brushes or connections inside the starter a tiny bit allowing more current flow? Seems far fetched. I'm really wanting to discuss this with my Amish friends in the starter/generator/motor repair business. Good discussion !

You can measure the voltage at the solenoid when you are getting the clicking sound and see if it is equal to battery voltage. Tapping a starter with a hammer is an old trick to jar and move the starter armature. This allow the armature in the starter to move beyond the dead spot in the armature and start spinning. When talking to your Amish friends ask them about armature dead spots and defective brushes in the starter if the starter has brushes.

 

[JWR]

You can measure the voltage at the solenoid when you are getting the clicking sound and see if it is equal to battery voltage. Tapping a starter with a hammer is an old trick to jar and move the starter armature. This allow the armature in the starter to move beyond the dead spot in the armature and start spinning. When talking to your Amish friends ask them about armature dead spots and defective brushes in the starter if the starter has brushes.

Good idea, in the category of "Why in heck did I not think to do that?" Will definitely keep all this in mind when I visit the repair shop.

 

[CADplans]

The click no start has been around for years. I purchased a Cub Cadet 2084 in 1993 and after about two weeks it developed the problem.

Since the 2084 Cub Cadet was mentioned,, I will tell how I fixed the starting issue when it popped up on a 2284 Cub Cadet that I owned,,

I purchased the Cub Cadet right after a complete new engine had been installed, including the starter.
The tractor had less than 10 hours on the new engine install,, and "CLICK" !!

I did not know about the "relay fix" ,, but, I looked at the battery cables, and I considered them to be VERY thin gauge.

I had the tools, terminals,and the #2 welding cable, so I fabricated new cables from the battery to ground and the starter,,
(NOTE: I had previously implemented this same "fix" a decade earlier on a Cub Cadet 1872,,)

The heavier cables fixed the issue on both of the Cub Cadets.

Manufacturers can save a LOT of $$$ by installing marginally sized wire in a tractor.
I think the cables on the 1872 may have been #10 wire,, positively no larger than #8,,

The #2 wire made sure there was plenty of voltage at the starter..

 

[JWR]

CADplans, I like the simplicity of just using larger starter cable if that is an answer. Certainly the relay idea just provides more starting current and maybe that is the core issue. I gotta get out from behind this pc and out to the garage and poke into my BX2200... One thing that immediately comes to mind is: Are the starter cables all that small ? The engine and the starter motor are rather small on a BX2200. Wonder also ... Why do we never ever hear of such a problem with automotive cases?

 

[Gator6x4]

CADplans, I like the simplicity of just using larger starter cable if that is an answer. Certainly the relay idea just provides more starting current and maybe that is the core issue. I gotta get out from behind this pc and out to the garage and poke into my BX2200... One thing that immediately comes to mind is: Are the starter cables all that small ? The engine and the starter motor are rather small on a BX2200. Wonder also ... Why do we never ever hear of such a problem with automotive cases?

The problem surfaced on tractors and lawn mowers when the following was added to stop people from hurting themselves.

1. Seat safety switch. Have to be in seat or unit will not start.

2. Neutral safety switch. Have to be in neutral or unit will not start and run over #1 son hanging on the front.

3. Reverse mow safety switch. To stop people from backing over children when mowing deck is engaged.

4. Forward mow safety switch. Have to be in seat before deck will engage.

5. I am sure I missed a couple more safety switches that the current has to flow through before it reaches the starter. Each switch reducing the voltage as it passes through.

 

[JWR]

Those things add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid but they do not affect the voltage or current on the heavy cable side. Right?

 

[CADplans]

Those things add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid but they do not affect the voltage or current on the heavy cable side. Right?

Exactly the opposite,, small cables add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid

The instant the starter tries to start, the starter pulls current, further dropping the voltage,, kinda like trying to fill a swimming pool with a squirt gun, instead of a fire hose,,,

 

[JWR]

You said "small cables add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid" which is the same thing I said, not the opposite. I was trying to say that all those various safety switches in series affect only the trigger for the solenoid, NOT the heavier battery-cable-sized main lead to the solenoid. Sure, once the starter motor is turning it is pulling lots of current through the larger cable but that is only after an effective trigger of the solenoid has already occurred.

AND, this really makes me wonder another thing: The clicking we all hear when the starter will not run may well be some other relay (or ??) up inside the steering column sheet metal rather than the solenoid. I'm going to have to get a helper to listen next time the problem occurs and see WHERE the clicking is coming from.

By the way, I just took the hood off my BX2200 and that cable from the battery to the solenoid is very direct, no detours, no stops. It is NOT small thin guage and looks just as robust as the battery cable on much larger engines. And only about 26" long. One thing is certain in my mind, that cable (battery to solenoid) is not the issue. Speculation about it being undersized was mentioned in Post # 75 in the context of a Cub Cadet. That's not a problem on BX2200s.