Backhoe thoughts....

[rjpotts]

Hey All, I've owned a CK3510 SE for a little over a year and am getting the bug for a backhoe. I like to build and/or restore things, last year I built a hydraulic dump trailer and restored a well used Workmaster post hole auger. I don't have much need for a backhoe and I fully understand the argument for just renting a mini hoe. But, truth be told I really don't need the dump trailer, post hole auger or a CK3510 for that matter! But I like having them and enjoy "playing" with all that stuff (and my old VW's too).

So with that said I'm kicking around buying an old backhoe to rebuild. Since it would be "pre-KIOTI" I plan to construct or modify a subframe and adapt the mounting of the hoe accordingly, if it's a 3 point hoe I'll modify it for use with subframe. My first question is how determine the right size hoe, not too big not too small. Today I looked at a Kelley B40 backhoe and walked away with the impression of it being a bit too large for the CK (but don't know for sure). I suppose the best way would be to get some measurements from a KB2475L KIOTI hoe, things like length of dipper, length of boom?

Thoughts?

 

[dirttoys]

Hey All, I've owned a CK3510 SE for a little over a year and am getting the bug for a backhoe. I like to build and/or restore things, last year I built a hydraulic dump trailer and restored a well used Workmaster post hole auger. I don't have much need for a backhoe and I fully understand the argument for just renting a mini hoe. But, truth be told I really don't need the dump trailer, post hole auger or a CK3510 for that matter! But I like having them and enjoy "playing" with all that stuff (and my old VW's too).

So with that said I'm kicking around buying an old backhoe to rebuild. Since it would be "pre-KIOTI" I plan to construct or modify a subframe and adapt the mounting of the hoe accordingly, if it's a 3 point hoe I'll modify it for use with subframe. My first question is how determine the right size hoe, not too big not too small. Today I looked at a Kelley B40 backhoe and walked away with the impression of it being a bit too large for the CK (but don't know for sure). I suppose the best way would be to get some measurements from a KB2475L KIOTI hoe, things like length of dipper, length of boom?

Thoughts?

Yea sure, get the measurements from a loader built for your machine, and get as close as you can. Be careful, it is ridiculous how easy it is to break a tractor with a hoe. Best of luck, and be careful.

Best,

ed

 

[Dave Canfield]

Subframe is good. Just make sure that the subframe and mounting points are better than the KB2485 and KB2475 design. By this, I like how the subframe reaches up toward the front of the tractor to relocate the stress away from the engine to transmission joint. What I think could have been designed better is the subframe has stress risers just in front of the rear axle. These stress risers are known to break when the backhoe is operated without keeping the stabilizers firmly planted. The backhoe is also strong enough that taking too big a bite can also over stress the subframe and rear mounting point. The other opportunity for better design is how the subframe mounts to the rear axle. First, the subframe mounts only to the differential housing in one narrow location. This rear mount also sits very low and reduces ground clearance. The second issue with the rear mount is that the loads that the backhoe applies to the tractor come into the rear axle at the weakest point of the housing. I suspect that the mounting system would be better if the loads were applied to the axle closer to the rear wheels.
As far as adapting a backhoe, I think that comparing a backhoe to the KB2475 is a good idea. Don't forget to compare cylinder sizes to establish that flow rate and pressures are similar.
Keep us in the loop so we can see what you make

Dave

 

[rjpotts]

So after more consideration I've cooked my backhoe project down to 2 different approaches. Both assume I don't find a deal on the proper KIOTI backhoe or properly fitted Woods, Bush Hog, etc.

1. Buy an appropriately sized hoe with a subframe made for a different tractor. I found a nice Bush Hog BH750 that had a subframe for a New Holland. I'm thinking that a subframe made for a different brand tractor would require less effort to adapt to my CK than starting from scratch. In this case the BH750 specs are almost identical to the KB2475L so it would be a good match. Never the less I still have to consider the cost of modifying the subframe to fit my CK, and the cost of driving my truck/trailer several hundreds of miles to fetch said hoe.

2. Buy a hoe with no subframe knowing I will need to either find a KIOTI subframe and marry them or fabricate a subframe from scratch. This option presents a lot of different alternatives ranging from used 3 point models to hoes that have been repurposed from other equipment like trenchers and skid loaders. The challenge I'm finding here is that a lot of these hoes are older and more difficult to determine if the size is comparable to a KB2475L. If it's nearby I can measure it as was the case with one I looked at last week. It was a "Kelly 40" and I determined it was too large but by having done that I've determined a "Kelly 30" would be a good fit. Now I'm looking at a hoe that came off of a Vermeer 454A trencher but am having a hard time determining if the size is comparable to a KB2475L, documentation is almost nonexistent and photos can be deceiving.

Just wanted to keep everyone up to date on my potential project. Appreciate your comments!

 

[Dave Canfield]

Thanks for the update.
Another idea to consider is look for a good used mini excavator. It would be far more agile than a tractor mounted hoe, but also more money. This idea has a lot of merit if mounting a backhoe will take a lot of tools, skills, and time.
It is also much more likely that you will use the backhoe rather than putting off a project - simply because the backhoe is not currently mounted on the tractor. I find myself doing that.

Dave

 

[rjpotts]

Another update, I just bought a Woods Du-al 1015. Most dimensions are within inches of the KIOTI KB2475L so should be an appropriate size for my CK. Too far away to inspect it personally but looks to be in great shape.

It comes with what was an optional PTO pump system so I'll have options as to how I want to power it. It also has what was the optional "Universal Frame Mount" (subframe) system, which probably won't be "universal"enough to fit my CK but will be a great foundation to build a customized subframe.

I've never seen anything like this universal frame mount. Apparently it attaches to the tractor chassis at a forward position, but then uses the lower 3 point arms and upper 3 point link mount to support the rear? I suppose the concept was to treat the 3 point system as a pivot transferring energy to the forward frame mount? Needless to say, I'm skeptical. I've attached an image of the universal frame mount, anyone here seen anything like that?

Apparently at some point Woods acquired the Du-al line and this unit must have been built early in the transition, it has both Woods and Du-al labeling. I contacted Woods and they were kind enough to send me a PDF of the original owners manual, nice guys!

 

[Dave Canfield]

Looks like it will not take much to adapt! The three point stuff should make the back half nearly universal.

 

[rjpotts]

Looks like it will not take much to adapt! The three point stuff should make the back half nearly universal.

I returned home with the backhoe a week ago and have been working on adapting it to my tractor. Attached is a pic of the initial fitting, I have a few tweaks to make and maybe more once I see how it behaves after operating it.

If anyone is interested in the mounting details I can post more detailed pics. As planned I modified the "universal" subframe that came with the hoe. I have a front mount snowblower and used it's rear tractor mounted brackets for the forward mounting points of the backhoe subframe. It worked really well, a 1 1/8" diameter pin joining the hoe subframe to the tractor about where the rear mounts of a front loader would be located. For the rear of the hoe subframe I created lower 3 point arm pins which I use to lift the subframe up until blocks on the top of the subframe contact the underside of the trailer hitch plate, the blocks nest nicely within pockets on the underside of the trailer hitch plate. This is primarily for transporting as the subframe will push up against the underside of trailer hitch when the hoe's feet are deployed. These are essentially the same mounting points that the KIOTI backhoe subframe uses. The top link of the 3 point hitch is not being used in any way.

Now I've moved on to the hydraulics. I have the feet and boom rotate functioning but the boom cylinder leaked. I disassembled the cylinder and found a defective rod seal. I have a replacement ordered so can't do much more until it arrives.

Anxious to get all the hydraulics functioning so I can see if the subframe needs any additional reinforcement.

 

[Dave Canfield]

Nice! Is there anything that holds the hoe up to the trailer hitch housing other than the lift arms? I would worry that the lift arms would leak down over time.

Dave

 

[rjpotts]

Nice! Is there anything that holds the hoe up to the trailer hitch housing other than the lift arms? I would worry that the lift arms would leak down over time.

Dave

Currently only the lower 3 pt arms hold the subframe up. As you said, I could add structure so the trailer hitch holds it up I'm not sure I want to. When not in use it's kind of nice to be able to lower it to the ground just to take the weight off of things. We'll see, I might change my mind.