bx 23 loses power up hills sounds like it's rattling apart.

[rich bx]

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I've read every thread I could find on these (TBN) boards regarding why/how a bx23 will demonstrate loss of power. Thanks to all who have shared experiences and the solutions.
I figured I'd start an new thread to both consolidate all the possible solutions, and to record my own experiences in the case none of these solutions works.
My problem seemed to start shortly after I lost the retaining pin (most here have said it's a roll pin, but my dealer assured me and handed me just a soft pin with a washer and little cotter) on the front wheel drive shaft.
I have been working on a sand dune (moving it from one part of the yard to another to accommodate the septic tank installation) and got to the point where I could traverse up and down the entire hill accept the very top which was very steep, so steep you have a hard time walking up it and remember it's all sand.
Well a Neighbor wanted some of the sand so I had switch back and forth from 4WD to 2WD (2 wd on the streeet, 4wd in the pile to scoop loads),
After doing that for a while, I felt something different, looked down on the street, and there was the front drive shaft coupler. I couldn't find what seemed like it should have been the 5-6 mm roll pin the help the universal to the shaft, but just put a regular bolt in there.
The next time I tried to climb up the big dune is when I noticed my problem. The problem is the machine shutters and bucks, but cannot generate enough power to spin the wheels burrowing the machine in the sand as it once did. On a flat surface, I can run in 2WD, 4wd Hi/Lo no problem accept when you initially mash the treadle to the floor from a stand still I can reproduce the "shutter" that is found when trying to climb the hill. The RPM's of the engine do not drop significantly, the machine just shutters and convulses violently like the wheel are spinning, but they are not. I slight improvement in this condition can be seen when loading the bucket and raising it so the weight is over the center of the tractor (obviously can't drive up a sand dune like that) .

Other things that have gone wrong:
blew the seal in one of the loader cylenders (fixed, works fine), just now blew a hole (possible rodent chew?) on one of the backhoe lines.


So Solutions I've read and tried from this wonderful Forum:

1. The Spline shaft and yoke have to line up ( not totally sure what was meant but tried to do that) As this spline shaft is not keyed, so.
2 Just replaced the oil, filter, fuel filters (both) did the 600 hydro service (after the problem started, thinking I had clogged hydro pickup screen/filter? guess not) Hydro fluid, screen engine oil all looked normal, no burnt, reasonably clean looking. replaced front axle oil ( front axle and hydro filled with SUDT)
3. treadle pedal linkage lost nut (not my problem)
4. Rim's slipping on tire (no)
5. hydro cooling fan (fine)
6. parking brake not still engaged (Although, the symptoms act like if I had the brake on and when It's shutters and can't make power at the wheels, I apply the brake to see if it gets worse, it does not really)
7. other linkages checked
8. PTO levers not engaged diverting hydro pressure away from drive train.
9. air cleaner. clogged. (cleaned it)

I hope I have each solutions mentioned and tried above, maybe I missed one or two (I hope )

I stuck my hand up into what appears to be some kinda rubber isolation coupling between the drive shaft (rear right in front of hydro fan) and it feel kinda crumbly in there, like it's not a solid peice, wonder if that's not as it should be?

I am pretty much at the end, I feel maybe the Hydro drive unit is somehow cooked, I am hoping not, but I have not found any other possible cause.

Once I put that hydro line back on, When I get that line back on there, and I find it doing this same shuttering and shuttering, I will have to submit to the vagary of the dealer
Hope someone can help?

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Could be starving for fuel. Replace the fuel filters (cheap) or problem with the injector pump/system, may be bypassing too much fuel back to the tank. My BX 25 acts that way when the fuel filters start plugging up; this is not related to hours. Take the load off and runs fine until further plugs up then won't get past idle.

Ron

 

[CalG]

If your BX is a hydrostatic drive, It could be that you are over loading the engine.

Put the throttle at full rated engine output RPM, and roll back the hydro speed to the minimum. Pushing the hydro speed does nothing towards power delivery.

The rule with compression ignition engins is, that if the tractor does not accelerate with added fuel, the engine is overloaded. Shift DOWN!
With a hydro, shifting down means backing off on the speed pedal.

 

[TMGT]

So the only change was the front driveshaft coming undone?

You said you lined it up best you could, what did you line up?

If u joints are out of time from one another they can cause a pretty sever bind in certain conditions, the problem could be coincidental with the driveshaft issue but i would start with verifying the driveshaft is together properly.
I'm not sure this could cause your problem, but it's hard to do a diagnosis on some things through a computer.

A picture of the driveshaft with the unversals would be a quick way for us to tell If it's right.

 

[captronr]

.... Rattling like it's coming apart...........

Probably not very likely, and again, hard to tell with a description: If your hydro pump is starving for oil (called cavitation), it will hammer, bang, clatter, and literally sound like it's coming apart. The noise comes from air bubbles being compressed by the hydro pumps.

I've seen bigger hydro units interior parts after being starved for oil. It's hard to believe that the pitting in the steel plates is caused by air! But the damage can occur fast and can be extensive.

Step one is to make sure the level of the hydro oil is proper.

Best wishes,
Ron

 

[radioman]

you changed one thing .. used a regular bolt instead of roll pin. this is when problems started you say. i just find it odd that the tractor would give you this much shuddering in 4 wheel drive with bolt instead of the pin. shouldnt make a difference, but i am willing to bet that the pin broke/fell out for a reason -- something happened to the front wheel drive. i would lift the front end of tractor with fel, put the outriggers down on bh and lift backend. make sure you dont have the MMM mounted. have someone sit on the tractor seat and "drive" it in the air while you look at it from the side looking at the front wheel drive -- please dont crawl under there without jackstands. i am willing to bet the front wheel drive shaft universal shaft coupling went bad. or perhaps the front axle housing is cracked somehow causing it to buck back and forth. it should not be hard to find the problem - i am sure its still a worthy tractor -- just gotta find the problem.

 

[rich bx]

Thanks Seabee - I did just change the filters at the 600 hr service, I'm now at 602 hrs on the clock. Is it possible they've clogged already? When You say "load" I meant o clarify that, but my OP seemed to be running long. As far as "load", could you order these in least load to most load?
* FEL driving into the pile of sand and scooping ?
* Backhoe, ripping root around a stump while digging it out of solid clay, loam, rocky/sandy soil ?
* Mashing the treadle while in High at lo RPMs heading up a hill ?
What about smoke and RPM's with clogged fuel line? When I "lose" power at the drive, the RPM's do not drop (at least I didn't thing they do) Would I see any "extra" smoke.
I guess it's possible the new fuel filters clogged then I changed them and they immediately Clogged again causes by the same thing that clogged them in the first place (gunk in the tank, bad fuel,etc?)
I will change them again and see if it goes away just until what ever is clogging them happens again, I will post results.

Thanks CalG - I guess that's where I am having a problem describing the problem, What is considered "overloading" the engine?
The symptom I see now was not happening before That is, I could easily drive up any hill I had the stones to in 4wd lo (turtle) , and when I lost traction, wheel would spin and bury the tractor, now it just rattles terribly, like a broke axle or a stripped gear some where.
Just trying to get an idea of where I encounter a load compared to when I am just doing "nominal" work with the machine. For what it's worth, I do not bog down the hydro while using the loader or the Backhoe They both work as normal, just when trying to drive up hill.
When I run the throttle to the top while in 4wd lo, the problem is way less noticeable, almost workable, Forgot to mention that behavior, Thanks for pointing those out. Even with the slightest feather touch to the treadle, It does the stubborn mule routine regardless of RPM's gear.

Thanks TMGT - I believe the problems began either right after (direct cause) or maybe a little after (co-incidental), It's hard to say because when I dropped the front driveshaft, I was working on flat cement for while before I tried the hill climbing bit. I "lined them up" best I could meaning when I did replace my hack bolt holding the shaft with the actual part that supposed to be there, I lined up the "forks" of the two halves of the driveshaft universals, Yeah computer not working here, I will grab some pictures ASAIK (as soon as I can) and post them. I understand what you are telling me becasue I don't know how to "line up the yokes" myself, I read that in another post (no pics for that one ) as a direct cause, the front wheel drive shaft notoriously falls out on this model I guess, so others have had it come apart too. The parts manager at the dealer told me that the lash between the spline shaft and the universal "yoke" that slides over it can get so big you have to replace the universal (can't buy just the yoke $56 sounded kinda cheap). The symptom also happens when in 2wd also just less pronounced, Maybe because there's less of a load in 2WD?

Thanks Captronr - Sorry I'm getting a little emotional with this thing at this point. Violent none the less. I keep the oil level up I check it every time, Especially since I've replaced a piston, and now a hydro hose.
I'm scared if the Hydro Pump is cavitating do to low oil. If that is the case, would the Hydro pump make that noise all the time? I assume that woul dbe a damage done situation, so what now, it continues to deteriorate until it longer longer drives even on the flat? (I can run the loader and backhoe at all RPM ranges, no noise or complaint from the tractor at all.)


Thanks Radioman - Appreciate the encouragement in your post, I love this tractor, it's just been givin me fits , I realize I'm pushing it pretty hard too, but...
Also Appreciate your warning about Jack Stands, once when I was young, I was replacing the coil springs in my Olds Delta 88 with the Car jacked up 6 feet in the air to allow enough swing arm to allow the springs to fall out (too poor young and stupid to buy a spring compressor) . I was just finished getting the last spring and tighten back down the ball joint , climbed out form under the car, and the rickety "jack stands" I had holding the car up failed. I'm a slow learner, lucky to be alive really.
Will try your diag procedure. So You think I would see some deflection, vibration in the front drive components if there is a misalignment, cracked housing , etc?
Sounds like a good test

Thanks so much for all the clues and helping guys...
will let everyone know where i wind up.

 

[sd455dan]

Maybe I am reading this thread wrong,- but it (sounds) like you no longer have your driveshaft yokes (in phase) that can lead to vibration and binding -especially under load.

search on driveline yoke phasing to get a bit of a picture

http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/drivelinephasing/drivelinephasing.html

the pic at the bottom of the article is of special importance.




As TMGT said a picture of your driveline showing complete end to end would be helpful


Once confirmed that the ends are correctly phased and u joints are smooth not damaged or loose, then the driveline can be eliminated as a possible partial cause of the problem described.

(symptom also happens when in 2wd also just less pronounced, Maybe because there's less of a load in 2WD?)

This statement does sound like you have drive problems elsewhere though... that are exacerbated by the the extra load in 4 x 4.

 

[dragoneggs]

Following along... My first thoughts were fuel filters, but if the driveline has been monkeyed with, I would listen to TMGT and sd455dan on the out of phase possibility. Good luck!

 

[niedejb]

Try electrical tape to hold the "deadman" switch under the seat closed.

It sounds like the tractor thinks you've fallen out of the seat and trying to kill the engine for you.

Long shot... But easy to rule out.