Raspy
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
- Messages
- 1,655
- Location
- Smith Valley, Nevada
- Tractor
- NH TC29DA, F250 Tremor, Jeep Rubicon
Transit,
There are a couple of ways that air can get into a closed loop system. One is if an auto air vent is located on the suction side of the pump. Then if the system static pressure is lower than the pump head pressure, you will have a partial vacuum at the vent and air will come in through it. Another way is if the system is "spitting". In this case the system pressure at the pressure relief valve is getting higher than its set point. This happens through the accumulation of pump head pressure, system static pressure and heat expansion. Then the relief valve leaks enough to lower the pressure while the system is running and hot. When the system turns off and cools the pressure lowers enough to allow the fill valve to let in more water. With this water comes air that accumulates and becomes a problem over time.
Don't put a vent on the suction side of the pump. Even back along the piping is bad for this. And don't have one mounted high up on the second or third floor unless you can close it off securely.
One post mentioned cavitation as a source of air and that is not correct. Cavitation does not create air. It's just turbulence in the impeller because the pressure is too low for the impeller design.
Always consider the "zero pressure point" when considering system design. This is where the expansion tank tees into the system. If it is on the pressure side of the pump, the suction side pressure will drop when the pump is running. If it's on the suction side of the pump, the outlet side of the pump will go up when the pump runs. This affects the pressure relief, the fill system, the venting and the size of the bubbles at various points, at startup. It also affects the boiler by changing the boiling point of the water in it.
As far as expansion tank rusting is concerned, ANY system that uses non-metalic tubing, such as PEX and barrier PEX, will have oxygen in it to a certain degree. Not air, but molecular oxygen. This oxygen will cause rust at the steel or iron parts in the system. This rusting process will cause expansion tank failure eventually. A micro bubble air vent, like the one shown in a previous photo, is useless for molecular oxygen and will not prevent expansion tank failure. My experience is that this type of vent is a waste of money and should be left out. A simple float type auto vent can cost about $5.00 and do every bit as good a job.
A good, non toxic preservative should always be used in systems with non metallic tubing and any iron or steel parts. And with it, iron pumps, iron flanges, steel tanks, iron boilers, iron air scoops and iron primary piping are all fine.
Oh, and by the way. A hydronics contractor is not a plumber and a plumber is not a hydronics contractor. I'm a hydronics guy, but I know very little about the fine job plumbers do in their field. Mostly, I've found that they know very little about hydronics. Separate fields that use different equipment for different purposes, that just happen to both be concerned with liquid flow in pipes.
There are a couple of ways that air can get into a closed loop system. One is if an auto air vent is located on the suction side of the pump. Then if the system static pressure is lower than the pump head pressure, you will have a partial vacuum at the vent and air will come in through it. Another way is if the system is "spitting". In this case the system pressure at the pressure relief valve is getting higher than its set point. This happens through the accumulation of pump head pressure, system static pressure and heat expansion. Then the relief valve leaks enough to lower the pressure while the system is running and hot. When the system turns off and cools the pressure lowers enough to allow the fill valve to let in more water. With this water comes air that accumulates and becomes a problem over time.
Don't put a vent on the suction side of the pump. Even back along the piping is bad for this. And don't have one mounted high up on the second or third floor unless you can close it off securely.
One post mentioned cavitation as a source of air and that is not correct. Cavitation does not create air. It's just turbulence in the impeller because the pressure is too low for the impeller design.
Always consider the "zero pressure point" when considering system design. This is where the expansion tank tees into the system. If it is on the pressure side of the pump, the suction side pressure will drop when the pump is running. If it's on the suction side of the pump, the outlet side of the pump will go up when the pump runs. This affects the pressure relief, the fill system, the venting and the size of the bubbles at various points, at startup. It also affects the boiler by changing the boiling point of the water in it.
As far as expansion tank rusting is concerned, ANY system that uses non-metalic tubing, such as PEX and barrier PEX, will have oxygen in it to a certain degree. Not air, but molecular oxygen. This oxygen will cause rust at the steel or iron parts in the system. This rusting process will cause expansion tank failure eventually. A micro bubble air vent, like the one shown in a previous photo, is useless for molecular oxygen and will not prevent expansion tank failure. My experience is that this type of vent is a waste of money and should be left out. A simple float type auto vent can cost about $5.00 and do every bit as good a job.
A good, non toxic preservative should always be used in systems with non metallic tubing and any iron or steel parts. And with it, iron pumps, iron flanges, steel tanks, iron boilers, iron air scoops and iron primary piping are all fine.
Oh, and by the way. A hydronics contractor is not a plumber and a plumber is not a hydronics contractor. I'm a hydronics guy, but I know very little about the fine job plumbers do in their field. Mostly, I've found that they know very little about hydronics. Separate fields that use different equipment for different purposes, that just happen to both be concerned with liquid flow in pipes.