CK series engine HP differences - tuning only

[jabelding]

The snowblower has a maximum volume of snow it will move at pto speed and I was at that limit. More hp would only burn more fuel.
Still curious how to increase the hp...if I need it.

Not necessarily your tractor should only use the amount of fuel it needs for a specific task upping the max amount of fuel the pump can deliver (upping the max HP) will not change the fuel used if your not pushing it more. Say you are blowing 5 ton of snow per hr your tractor is going to use a given amount of fuel to do that work and use the hp needed. If you up the max fuel delivery to increase your hp and still blow 5 ton of snow per hr your fuel use will still be the same because you are still doing the same amount of work.

 

[Amvcane]

We're talking about tier 3 engine, no computer. A dash mounted knob or switch would be nice to vary power.
I may be wrong, I'm not a diesel mechanic. If you change the injector timing ( make it stay open longer during an intake stroke ) you would be putting more fuel into the cylinder. Thus using more fuel. You still have to operate at pto speed for the given task.

 

[IslandTractor]

Thanks for that information Coyote, That goes along with my original thought - it takes specialized equipment and tinkering to achieve "whatever" max output from an engine. Far, far beyond me. I was just curious as they all seem to be the exact same engine otherwise. I'm happy with mine as is, and believe like you - "If I wanted more power I should have bought a bigger tractor."
Thanks, Greg

Problem is that if you want a "bigger" tractor and consider more HP to be "bigger" then you are playing into Kioti's (and other manufacturers) marketing scams. The entire Kioti NX line from 45hp to 60hp has exactly the same engine with different software programming. The loader, hydraulic pumps, 3PT and total tractor weight are also essentially identical. I think the 60 has slightly taller rear wheels. No biggie except that the marketers charge almost a couple thousand bucks for each 5hp increment in "software" programming. If you like the idea of being scammed then get the 60hp version as a great (not) deal. If you don't like being scammed get the 45.

 

[KYErik]

If parts manuals are available, compare the part numbers for the pistons, block, piston rings, injectors, bearings, oiling system etc between the various hp models. That will tell you if there are any real differences besides the injector pump settings.

Maybe a call to an injection pump shop could reveal the truth, ask them "If my Kioti 45 hp tractor injector pump was trashed and I found a 25 hp injector pump at a bone yard, could you adjust it to give me 45 hp?", "Would you have to order any parts to do it?". You could always give them $5 for their time.

 

[marchanna]

I wouldn't be surprised that one of the strategies behind the detuned offerings is that a lower hp variant of the exact same engine has statistically fewer warranty claims. This would allow them to offer the same engine but with lower hp at a lower price while maintaining the same profit margin or better.

 

[IslandTractor]

I wouldn't be surprised that one of the strategies behind the detuned offerings is that a lower hp variant of the exact same engine has statistically fewer warranty claims. This would allow them to offer the same engine but with lower hp at a lower price while maintaining the same profit margin or better.

These engines are so reliable that I doubt they would ever need to change the price to cover warranty costs. I think it is a plain old marketing game. Americans love horsepower and are willing to pay more for it. Offer to boost the horsepower and charge them more for it. Some VP of Marketing got a nice bonus check for figuring out that strategy.

 

[marchanna]

I don't disagree with your position, however the CUT market is pretty competitive, and I don't think market pressures allow for just a simple increase in price where there is no relative increase in cost. Consider how expensive a warranty claim is for the company; they have to pay those labour costs out directly to the independent dealers. A single warranty claim, can easily cost them their entire net profit margin on a tractor.

Even if it isn't calculated that way, you might also find, that they only amortize the development cost for both variants on the more expensive one, or they might have a combined profit margin target for the two together.

There are only a few companies in North America that can get away with just simply charging more, and don't think you'll find any of them are Asian-based.

 

[IslandTractor]

I don't disagree with your position, however the CUT market is pretty competitive, and I don't think market pressures allow for just a simple increase in price where there is no relative increase in cost. Consider how expensive a warranty claim is for the company; they have to pay those labour costs out directly to the independent dealers. A single warranty claim, can easily cost them their entire net profit margin on a tractor.

Even if it isn't calculated that way, you might also find, that they only amortize the development cost for both variants on the more expensive one, or they might have a combined profit margin target for the two together.

There are only a few companies in North America that can get away with just simply charging more, and don't think you'll find any of them are Asian-based.

Kioti, JD, Kubota all do this. They started doing it once engines became turbocharged and electronically controlled. Yanmar also does it with marine diesels and I'm pretty sure Cummins does too. All of these engines are excellent and would be expected to easily outlive their warranty periods. I wouldn't disagree that the identical engine tuned for 35hp would statistically last longer than one tuned up to 45hp but the overwhelming odds are that both variants would easily go 3000+ hours so would be long out of warranty by the time any failure occurred.

And, note in the discussions here that 1) engine failures are rare as hen's teeth and 2) almost nobody has engine longevity as their major criteria in selecting one brand or one model over another. These modern engines are just diesel powered versions of the Energizer Bunny. The other point is that marketing guys are pretty smart and know full well that people will pay more for more horsepower even if they rarely use it and even if there is fundamentally no difference between different engine versions. I haven't priced them recently but I believe Kioti is getting a premium of something close to $1000 for every 5hp increase in rated output. And, they are clever enough to offer 45, 50, 55 and 60 hp versions of the NX so even if you decide not to splurge on the 60, they still might wring a few extra bucks out of your wallet if you settle for the 55 or 50.

 

[marchanna]

I understand what you're saying, I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more factors to consider than just dismissing it as a marketing cash-grab. As much as it might be a way to sell unneeded hp at a premium, it may also be a means to provide a more affordable alternative to those buyers where that extra couple thousand dollars is a roadblock.

Consider Kubota. Based on their reported revenues, they earn an average net profit of 8.7% on the wholesale price of each tractor they sell. If you look at three identical tractors electronically tuned to different hp, the input costs are the same, but the profit margins are different e.g.: wholesale prices of 25,000, 26,000, and 27,000 would have net margins of 1,262, 2,262, and 3,262 respectively. That's not a lot of margin to play with. At 8.7% net income on a company that size, any minor strategic error is the difference between profitability and loss. If some one were to find a hack and release it to the public where everyone stopped buying the higher tuned versions, it would be financially devastating to the company.

In the end, yes, it is all about profit. But I don't think it is an insidious as you suggest. If tractor companies could not build tractors for a profit, they would simply cease to make tractors.

 

[IslandTractor]

I understand what you're saying, I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more factors to consider than just dismissing it as a marketing cash-grab. As much as it might be a way to sell unneeded hp at a premium, it may also be a means to provide a more affordable alternative to those buyers where that extra couple thousand dollars is a roadblock.

Consider Kubota. Based on their reported revenues, they earn an average net profit of 8.7% on the wholesale price of each tractor they sell. If you look at three identical tractors electronically tuned to different hp, the input costs are the same, but the profit margins are different e.g.: wholesale prices of 25,000, 26,000, and 27,000 would have net margins of 1,262, 2,262, and 3,262 respectively. That's not a lot of margin to play with. At 8.7% net income on a company that size, any minor strategic error is the difference between profitability and loss. If some one were to find a hack and release it to the public where everyone stopped buying the higher tuned versions, it would be financially devastating to the company.

In the end, yes, it is all about profit. But I don't think it is an insidious as you suggest. If tractor companies could not build tractors for a profit, they would simply cease to make tractors.

We don't actually disagree. I guess my point to potential buyers is that they should consider their horsepower requirements very carefully. There are precious few things that the NX6010 can do that the NX4510 can't also do efficiently. I've always felt that the lowest horsepower tractor in a given frame size is generally the best bang for the buck. If you want to spend more money then go up a frame size. A Kioti RX6010 will kick sand into the NX6010's face and they are pretty close in price.