Clarification on third function valve kit installation.

[gwisejr]

Good morning,

I bought a Branson 3520H a couple weeks ago and I plan on installing a third function valve kit to run a grapple. I've not decided on the kit to buy but trying to understand how they are connected, I'm still a little unclear. They all connect to the Power Beyond port but then the general instructions are to run the T port to the return line/tank reservoir. I'm reading between the lines and assuming that if there is already a hose plugged into the PB port on the main loader valve running to the rear PTO, the third function valve kit is simply placed in series.

Original: Main Loader Valve PB-> Rear PTO
Modification: Main Loader Valve PB->third function valve kit P port-> valvekit T port-> original rear PTO line.

Is this correct or am I totally off base in my understanding?

BTW - for some background, I've purchased a 5 acre lot with about 1.5 acres of trees and brush that I want to clear off. The immediate need is to help load the logs that I've already cut down on to a portable sawmill but long term just helping to clear the brush and trees once cut down.

Just a follow up,, I'd like to be able to use the third function to run a skidsteer type post hole digger. small or low flow one of course, would this run into issues that I'm reading about concerning continuous operation of the valve?

Thanks.

 

[gwisejr]

I just finished reading PISTON's 2012 post about adding rear remotes and found his information concerning the third function valve connection: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/232020-how-i-added-rear-remote.html. So unless anyone has different information, I think that he answered my question.

Thanks to all who might have been formulating a reply.

George

Good morning,

I bought a Branson 3520H a couple weeks ago and I plan on installing a third function valve kit to run a grapple. I've not decided on the kit to buy but trying to understand how they are connected, I'm still a little unclear. They all connect to the Power Beyond port but then the general instructions are to run the T port to the return line/tank reservoir. I'm reading between the lines and assuming that if there is already a hose plugged into the PB port on the main loader valve running to the rear PTO, the third function valve kit is simply placed in series.

Original: Main Loader Valve PB-> Rear PTO
Modification: Main Loader Valve PB->third function valve kit P port-> valvekit T port-> original rear PTO line.

Is this correct or am I totally off base in my understanding?

BTW - for some background, I've purchased a 5 acre lot with about 1.5 acres of trees and brush that I want to clear off. The immediate need is to help load the logs that I've already cut down on to a portable sawmill but long term just helping to clear the brush and trees once cut down.

Just a follow up,, I'd like to be able to use the third function to run a skidsteer type post hole digger. small or low flow one of course, would this run into issues that I'm reading about concerning continuous operation of the valve?

Thanks.

 

[ericm979]

3rd function valves generally have four ports- two work ports, an in and an out. They should be connected like you describe with no tees. If there's a fifth power beyond port on the 3rd function then it goes to the 3pt and the tank line gets teeded into the tank line from the loader valve.

If there's no PB port on the 3rd function valve make sure its out port is rated for your system pressure (usually around 2200 psi) or greater because it will see that when your 3pt is lifting at capacity.

 

[gwisejr]

I'm looking to use the Summit Hydraulic's third function kit, Z50-1A-J2-AG12. Based on discussions with Summit and info from the branson service manual, it looks like i have two options on how to connect the third function kit.

Option 1 - Connect in series with the loader valve.

According to the branson manual, the loader valve is a open center type. the power Beyond port called the Carryover port connects back to the three point Power port and according to the manual, if the loader is in use, the three point cannot be used. So if I connect the third function valve in series off of the loader Power Beyond(Carryover)port, then I would not be able to operate the grapple at the same time as either curling or lifting.

Option 2 - Connect in parallel with loader valve.

This option would allow using the third function at the same time as the loader curl and lift functions.

The connections: Can I get someone who would know best to tell me if I've got it right and make sure that I'm not making doing something stupid or dangerous here? Also, any recommendations? I'm inclined to go with option #2 since it seems to be the easier one to implement and also provides the most functionality. I'm just concerned about the location of the Tee's to the Power and Tank lines. I'm assuming that they can be done right off the loader valve but I have no idea.

Connections for Option #1:
A. Disconnect hydro line from loader Power Beyond port and connect that line to the third function valve kit N port.. Requires additional Power Beyond Plug installed in that port.
B. Run new hrydro line from loader valve PB port to the third function valve P (power) port.
C. Run additional line from Third function valve T (tank) port. Tee it into the existing Tank line off the loader valve.. Would it be acceptable to take off the existing 90 degree elbow on the loader valve T port and replace it with the Tee adapter?

Connections for Option #2:
A. Tee off the power hydro line to the loader valve and connect one leg to the loader valve and one to the third function valve.. Currently the loader Power port has a 90 degree elbow, remove that and replace with a Tee adapter and use a new line off that to the third function valve P port.
B. Run additional line from Third function valve T (tank) port. Tee it into the existing Tank line off the loader valve.. Would it be acceptable to take off the existing 90 degree elbow on the loader valve T port and replace it with the Tee adapter?
C. N (power beyond) port on the third function valve is unused and left plugged.

I've attached images from the Summit Hydraulics installation doc. Both the blurb and the multiple valve connection diagram. The third image is the loader valve from the manual, and lastly, a couple pics of my loader valve.

thanks for any suggestions and recommendations.

 

[ericm979]

Option 2 still won't give you real simultaneous operation. When you operate the loader and the 3rd function at the same time, the one with less load on the cylinders will move. Then the other will move. With option 1 you can trigger the 3rd function while moving the loader, it just won't move until you stop moving the loader. Pretty much the same as option 2 will do except it will be predictable.

But if you want to try option 2 it won't hurt anything and you can switch to option 1 if you don't like it. I think your plumbing for both options is correct.

I've been running my grapple off a SCV mounted on the fender next the joystick. While the handle is close to the joystick I still need to move my hand to operate it, which precludes simultaneous operation. I've never needed to open/close the grapple while moving the loader and rarely even wanted it.

My dealer installed SCV gets power from the loader valve's PB. It does not have it's own PB, just a single out which goes to the factory SCVs' in port. That works as long as the added SCV's out port is rated for the full system pressure. If your 3rd function valves are similarly rated you could do that and skip the tank connection.

 

[gwisejr]

Option 2 still won't give you real simultaneous operation. When you operate the loader and the 3rd function at the same time, the one with less load on the cylinders will move. Then the other will move. With option 1 you can trigger the 3rd function while moving the loader, it just won't move until you stop moving the loader. Pretty much the same as option 2 will do except it will be predictable.

But if you want to try option 2 it won't hurt anything and you can switch to option 1 if you don't like it. I think your plumbing for both options is correct.

I've been running my grapple off a SCV mounted on the fender next the joystick. While the handle is close to the joystick I still need to move my hand to operate it, which precludes simultaneous operation. I've never needed to open/close the grapple while moving the loader and rarely even wanted it.

My dealer installed SCV gets power from the loader valve's PB. It does not have it's own PB, just a single out which goes to the factory SCVs' in port. That works as long as the added SCV's out port is rated for the full system pressure. If your 3rd function valves are similarly rated you could do that and skip the tank connection.

ericm979,

Thanks for pointing out the issue with tying in to the power line in parallel. That definitely changes the equation. I'm still a little confused then about the Tank port. If I do option #1, are you saying that I don't need to connect the tank line into the existing tank return line on the loader valve as long as the third function valve is rated for full system pressure out of it's N port which would be connected to the rear three point valve P port?

Thanks.

 

[ericm979]

Yep. The 3rd function would need to be set up without power beyond. Most of them are. The tank and PB functions are combined in one port. When you think about it it makes sense- the 3rd function valve is either on in one of two positions or off. When it's on all flow is switched to the work ports and wouldn't be going out the PB anyhow. My understanding (and hopefully someone smarter will correct me if I'm wrong) is the PB only gets flow when the valve is feathered. If it got flow at full valve operation the work ports would not see full pressure.

On my 3725 the dealer added SCV is connected to the loader valve PB and it's out port runs back up to the loader valve and is connected to the factory line that runs from PB to the 3pt (in my case the factory SCV stack on top of the 3pt). When I saw that I was puzzled at first- why didn't they run the output right into the factory SCVs? But I realized that since the factory line runs under the floor pan and above the transmission it'd be a lot of work to remove, and it was just easier that way (and less work to reverse should I ever want to).

 

[gwisejr]

So the Summit Hydraulic's rep basically restated the option 1 connection plumbing.. So I guess it is important to send the T port out to the tank line.

Thanks for all the info. I'd love to hear from someone who can explain why some implementations appear to allow you to just connect a third function valve in line between the loader PB port and the rear 3pt Power port and have no Tank port off that third function valve. That still confuses me.


Reps email:

Hi George,

All our valves are have parallel means of fluid distribution. The way i'd advise you to connect is to connect your power beyond hose out of your loader valve to the pressure port on our valve, then then the "T" port on our valve back to your return line with a tee, then connect your three point by connect a hose out of our "N" port on our valve with the power beyond adapter to the pressure port on your three point valve.

Call me if you have any questions.

 

[ericm979]

Maybe their T port is not rated for full pressure. Even if it is there's no harm in connecting both the PB and T lines, just more work.

It looks like the subplate type valves have T ports rated for full tractor level pressures. Which makes sense as the usual sub plates don't have PB ports.

 

[Steve 3650]

I was also confused when I was considering the Summit kit. My understanding, after talking with a Summit rep., was that their monoblock valve was connected the same as a D03 except there would be a fifth hose that had to tee into the drain hose.
It was supposed to be a true 3rd function.
The fifth hose maybe wouldn't have been a big deal but I don't have much room to work with so I opted for a comparably priced kit with a D03 valve.