Culvert Project

[scruffy]

Glenn, I would adamently recommend something sturdier than those steak knives! The blades are to flimsy, and liable to break off, cutting you in the process. NOT a nice thought. Can you weight your culvert down to get started? I would think that if you could find a way to temporarily push (sink?) them such as using your FEL to push them down, and utilizing sandbags draped over them to hold them in place while filling/tamping may be of some benefit. I've never worked with the 'plastic' stuff before, so that is all guessing.
In troublesome areas, I used to poke a 3" hole in the top of each end of culvert. Strange...no? Sure made a handy spot to hook onto to drag it (mostly by winch) back up the creek bed to where it was supposed to be! Also to drag down the road to place originally. No way could you lay it across a FEL, or a FEL w/forks, too much brush on each side.
I replaced one crossing 3 years in a row, finally the third time with two 48 inch culverts. The fourth year it was logs with fill over them. That stayed put. The culvert is still down in that canyon somewhere, it was too beat up to save, not to mention to far to try to pull out!

 

[gordon]

Glenn It would be a good idea on your head wall if you also used some rebar and drive it down through the bags from the top down to the bottom. What this does is tie all the bags together to form one stronger mass. Instead of a bunch of different bags. Just a thought----#4 rebar should work out fine.
Gordon

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I think they are trying to say that it is better for the overflow to take out some of the road fill (because the lowest spot is right by the culvert) than it is to let it carve out part of the bank. It sure would be easier to repair the road than the bank, and maybe less material will have been washed downstream. So the lower part of figure 16 is considered the right way to do it. The text that explains this is unfortunately not next to the diagram, but appears under the heading "Installation".

 

[glennmac]

Three days of rain.

There is now about 12" of water in the place where my pipes are floating. I picked a spot where the flow was slow, but of course that is where it will pond up the highest. Before I left for work yesterday, I put a 70 lb. sand tube on the top of the upstream end of each pipe just to weigh them down. Both bags had fallen off this morning. The only force that could have moved them is buoyancy that probably lifted and rotated the pipes. How irritating -- devices that are intended to be submerged ... that float. Does everyone but me install drain pipes in dry trenches and dry washes?

I can't really get near the pipe with my FEL. The soil on the banks is too soft and I am afraid of a cave-in if I take the tractor too near the edge. Also, the pipe is too far down to reach with the FEL even if I could get near the edge. This also means I can't do a "preemptive dump" of a large amount of gravel on top of the pipes to immediately fill up the gaps with tons of material in one fell swoop. I probably will have to hand shovel gravel on and watch the water wash it away. The labors of Sisyphus.

I can only hope it dries out some by Saturday morning. Otherwise, I'll have to wait until January when the creek freezes (if it does) to spoon in my gravel. That will mean I cant get to all the land I want to brush cut on the other side of the creek until Spring. Boo-hoo. And then the ground will probably be too wet and soft to risk tractoring.

Gee, all I was trying to do 3 months ago was get a machine to cut my lawn, and now look what I'm getting involved in. My, how things change. It's all that tractor's fault -- it makes me do and spend money on things I never even thought of before.

Glenn

 

[gerard]

glenmac, this may not be possible but have you though of putting in the culvert in what is now just land (ie parralell to the existing channel), then dig out the downflow side first to the existing channel, then the upflow side and divert the flow through your now installed culvert pipe? Then just fill in the existing channel with fill and you effectivley just shifted the channel. This depends on your layout of course and would be perfect if the stream curved and you could just "connect" it with a straight line. Just a thought.....

 

[glennmac]

Gerard, that's a good thought and would theoretically work. I don't have a sharp corner to cut, though, and the digging would be a lot of work. Probably would need a backhoe. Hmmm ... maybe this is a justification to buy that wonderful $5K toy. Nah, I could never sell that idea to the Secretary of War. I'm gonna just start shoveling gravel on Saturday and see what happens.

Glenn

 

[PBMAX]

Quick question, I hope. Some one mentioned having a hard time getting the culvert covered to the ends.

Here's my idea. Cut a piece of plywood to fit over the end of the pipe and it should be cut to allow the depth needed for backfill.(Example if you plan to have a total of 12" of backfill including pavement.)Then come down 12" from the top edge of the ply-wood this is the top of the pipe.Then cut a hole the diameter of the pipe.The place it in front of your pipe in the ditch and cut it fit over the pipe and between the walls of the bank(remember no bottom, you will be pulling this out later).(Spray both sides with deisel before actual use and mabye nail rope handels on the side that will face the dirt.)PLace the ply-wood say 2" or so back from the edge of the pipe.Then using quick crete build your self a concrete slope (mabye put in rebar over the pipe intrance).If you don't get the crete to soupy you should be able to form it by hand(yes, I have formed it this way.Its messy but can be done on small projects) compared to trying to build such an unusual shaped form it shouldn't be to bad. Once the crete dries remove the plywood and backfill to it.

Any clue as to what I'm saying.If I can figure out how to post a scetch I do that. This is one idea that would be easyer said than done!!!I know but we do what we have to...

Lil' Paul
Proud new owner of TC21D
Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[glennmac]

Paul,

I think I can picture what you are suggesting. But what would keep the concrete from just sliding down the curved sides of the pipe?

Glenn

 

[Harv]

Dave -

I, too, found that diagram confusing, but in fact I based my overflow plan on what I thought was the principle they were eluding to. That is, instead of letting the excess water run amuck, guide it to where it will do the least damage and reunite it with the stream further down.

 

[Harv]

Glenn -

You're living my worst nightmare -- the creek is filling up before the pipe is down. /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

I just got back from yet another 2 days at culvert-building. Culvert #3 is nearly completed. One more trip (scheduled for Saturday) should do it. By "complete", I just mean that they are usable. I still need to do more rock work on the face of #1, all three need more top cover (I haven't reached that magical 12 inches yet). I'm planning on just using clean dirt fill (42 acres and I'm not sure where I'm going to get the dirt /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif). Then there's the overflow issue.

Did this seem like a simple project when you first considered making your own culvert? This thing has mushroomed about 3-fold from what I originally thought it would be.

BTW -- the "big guys" divert a running stream while they install the culvert and then divert it back to the culvert when it's finished. Them boys have big toys!

So how 'bout this? You're putting down two pipes, right? Would just one of them handle the current flow? If you can just get one anchored, you might be able to divert the stream (with boulders, sandbags, etc.) entirely into one pipe while you work on the other.

My culvert #2 had a trickle in the stream bed, nothing compared to your flow, but I was facinated how quickly the ditch dried up on either side of the first pipe I dropped in. It was purely inadvertent on my part, but the pipe wound up in the perfect position to catch nearly all of the flow, as if the water knew what the pipe was for.

Did you ask anybody about these mysterious pipe "anchors" I was talking about? I'll see if I can locate some details on that.

Too bad you're not a teeny bit closer -- it would have been interesting if we could have double-teamed your project.

 

[Rowski]

Harv,

I'm curious, why not make a "ford" type crossing where your shallow culvert are going. Line the ford with really coarse gravel. This is presuming your just crossing with the tractor.

Derek

 

[Harv]

Derek -

By 'ford', do you mean something like 'swale' (this is all unfamiliar terminology to me /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif)?

My creeks are quite shallow, but they really rip much of the year. In our swale discussion I think we concluded that it would be unwise to cross a stream with any real flow at all.

At his point, of course, since my pipes are all in place, it's sort of a moot question for me. That is, until the rains come. If my culverts wash away this winter then I'm free to start all over again, right? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Harv, on the bag redi-mix for culvert ends. I use the bags as they come, plastic or not. Take a pitch fork and poke some holes in the bags for moisture to get in. Take some half inch rebar at various lenghts and stake the bags together vertical as the stack rises. On the top row make sure the rebar ends are far enough into the bags so that are not exposed to rust. After you are all done wet the bags down and the whole thing will lock up for you. The paper will rot off in time and the rebar will tie the bags together nicely.
Hope this helps

george,
keoke

 

[Blu21]

Harv,I know you like pics so I shot this just for you.I know your project is different. This is one type of ford,the main water flows through multiple pipes and when the river rises the water flows over the road.Yes it is safe to drive over as you see it but after a good rain it does get impassable!See the guy fishing,he told me its a good spot for trout.Tom

 

[scruffy]

Tom, where I grew up (pacific northwest) we always referred to that type as a low water bridge. Beats putting in a summer bridge every year, particularly nowadays with all the federal and state regulations/surveys/permits you have to contend with.

 

[glennmac]

This double culvert is gonna happen!

But it started out badly this morning. The gravel guy arrives with this monster truck and 15 tons of the crushed limestone process. (Its a mixture of limestone sand and 3/4" limestone rocks.) Of course he will not go down the embankment to my creek area. So we decide to dump the pile in the corner of my backyard adjacent to my embankment "road". Well, he crosses about 80 yards of my front, side and back yards with his 50,000 lb. rig, leaving 2" deep tire tracks pressed into the dirt the whole way. He then comes back with 12 tons of topsoil and enhances the Grand Canyon effect. (I deliberately increased my topsoil order after he dumped the gravel so I would have enough for next week's rut filling project.)

Then its off to the creek to adjust the placement of the two 10' long, 24" wide pipes that are bobbing in about a foot of water. I have to cut away chunks of the bank while standing in the creek to straighten it and to get rid of some sticker bushes and other vegetation hanging over the edge. Then, I realize that one of the pipes is backwards -- I want the other end upstream. So I lift up one end of the pipe -- it only weighs 110 lbs but it has water in it and is clumsy and slippery -- and then struggle to get it into a clean-and-jerk position. I get it over my head and then walk under it go get it vertical, so I can flip it end over end. Well it flips, but so do I -- right into the creek with the pipe falling on top of me. Soaked, but intact. In any event, the proper end is now upstream, and the pipes are squished together between the banks.

Then I start my loader runs to get buckets of gravel. This is fun; I'm glad the pile is far away. I decide to put the first load in the middle of the pipes where they are abutting each other. Good decision.

This is where I discover my most useful tool for this project -- the 72" heavy iron pry bar I just bought primarily to move boulders. One end is flattened like a chisel, and the other end is round like the head of a giant nail, about 2.5" in diameter. I stick the pry bar between the pipes and find I can lever about a 4" opening between them, and all the gravel falls down between them. Just what I want! I use the chisel end to rod the gravel under the haunches of the pipes. I do the same on the sides where they are not quite touching the banks. I use the round end as a narrow tamper, which fits into all the narrow spaces. As I built the gravel up, I begin to use my 10" x 10" tamper. I also have a Rube Goldberg arrangement of sand tubes on both ends of the culvert.

I had just covered over the tops of the pipes before I quit for the day, and the rest will be easy. About another 6-8 inches of gravel, and then 4-6 inches of topsoil. I'll definitely be done tomorrow.

Lesson learned: when you have two pipes it is crucial to get gravel between them as well as on each side. When you have narrow clearances between the pipes, and between each pipe and the high bank, you can only work with a very little bit of gravel at a time. This is because you can only effectively rod small amounts into the narrow areas. It would have been a major mistake to have had the dump truck dump the load on the pipes (if he could have reached the site.) If that had happened, I NEVER could have rodded the gravel throught the narrow openings.

I'll post pictures once I have them developed.

Glenn

 

[glennmac]

The culvert bridge is done and my tractor has been to the other side. And back.

Finished with the gravel and then put on some topsoil. I need to do a little more sand bagging. Could those of you who suggested attaching the sandbags together with rebar please explain exactly how that would be done. Do I try to hammer the rebar through the bags or do I attach the rebar outside the bags.

This is my first tractor project. The rewards are both immediate and long term. It was fun to do, just me and my 2910. One hundred years from now, what evidence will there be that I was ever on the planet. Well, maybe my culvert bridge will still be there for someone to admire.

To me, it is the finest culvert bridge in the world.

Glenn

 

[gordon]

Glenn congrats on the new bridge. To answer your question, just hammer the rebar down through the bags. Nothing fancy just practial. It makes the bags one big mass instead of a bunch of single bags once the pressure of the storm water hits them.
Gordon

 

[Harv]

Glenn -

Congratulations!!! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

If anybody can appreciate what you just accomplished it's me! I can totally relate to the exhilaration you felt when you made that historic first crossing of the new bridge. It's like setting foot on a new continent, ain't it?

I've gotten that same rush 3 times now in the last two weeks, and each one was a total feeling of triumph. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

This was also my first tractor project, and I can also relate to the sheer joy of putting the new toy to such a worthy task. When my crushed rock was delivered there was no way the truck could get close to the culvert sites, at least not the last two. But I was just as happy to have him drop the load near the house, leaving me and my big orange buddy to transport it to where I needed it.

Actually, I loved it on the first two culverts, but the third one was so far away it got fairly tedious to make so many long runs. I was getting pretty comfortable in the seat and tried to run the loads out there in seventh gear. Each time I crossed the first culvert, I usually forgot about the little dip on the far side, which dropped the front end of the tractor sharply and then broght it up again just as quickly. The result -- part of my payload scattered on the road. Oh, well. now that part of the road is nicely paved. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

As for the rebar staking, I just pounded mine top to bottom through as many bags as I coud hit with each stake. Because of the pipe itself, I had to angle some of them, but structurally that works out just fine.

I eventually added another row of sandbags filled with the limestone to help contain the dirt fill I topped it off with. The top of the attached photo shows the rebar not quite pounded in all the way (for illustrative purposes, of course), and the bottom shows pretty much the completed culvert (number three) with extra sandbags and soil.

What shall we do next? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[glennmac]

Harv,

The coincidence that you started this thread just when I was beginning my culvert project was very helpful. So were your pictures. You certainly are to be commended for the diligence, creativity, humor and forethought you put into your posts.

By the way, since we have polluted several threads with this tangent, your soil in that one ditch picture does look rocky. What elevation are you at? Your property is becoming troublesome to my boxblade theory: ie, that boxblades work best on nonrocky, dry, sandy and/or friable soil. I see four possibilities for my theory:

1. My theory is wrong. This is impossible, for I have a later-developed theory that none of my theories can be wrong.
2. You did not boxblade that ditch with the rocks.
3. You did boxblade it, but it didn't work very well.
4. Your property is actually in New England.

Glenn