Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Cutting / Groving / Siping R-4 for snow

[jimgerken]

Actually the edges are very nearly square, when using the weird combo of #5 cutter on the #6 head. It starts out visibly square at the surface of the knob, and drops vertical about 1/16" of an inch to where it changes angle to about 5 degrees, then drops about 3/16" at that angle to the rounded arc bottom of the cut. When running your fingertips across the test grooves I cut in a flat rubber mudflap, comparing the weird groove to a standard #4/#4 groove, I can't tell the difference in the way the edges feel.

Also, there are variations of what I have done with the combos, and the way the blades are loaded. it is possible to bias the blade in the head, so one edge has a vertical wall, and the other wall has a lot more angle. Using a variation of this method it would be possible to make an actual undercut groove, with the cutting edge (trailing edge) of the groove sharper! than 90 degrees. I can't believe the exact groove shape is going to matter much though because the edge is going to round over from wear in a few months. The factor that leads me to the weird groove concept is dirt ejection. The test mudflap is again a good example. The #4/#4 "worm" (rubber that was cut out of its groove), resists being put in and out of its groove with a small noticable amount of resistance. The weird combo #5 blade / #6 head "worm" goes in and out of its groove with much less resistance. Now you are thinking "that's why it won't work well". I would guess that the snow / dirt doesnt have to stay in the groove ALL THE WAY AROUND the tire as it rotates, but rather just has to fill the grooves as the grooves are presented to the snow/dirt as they rotate into the snow/dirt, and grind across it. Even if the snow/dirt falls out as soon as the grooved knob leaves the surface of the ground, the concept is working. In fact, if it falls out immediately I'd say it is perfect. A full groove of dirt coming back around and contacting the surface again is going to be a lot less effective than an open groove.

Thanks for the input on the safety factor. I will wear my leather gloves for protection from possible blade breakage. The blades are sharp as ****, so it would be a heck of a gouge. There is probably a blade breakage potential with whatever combination of blades and heads you use, so let's all be careful out there.

 

[Carl Bert]

Actually the edges are very nearly square, when using the weird combo of #5 cutter on the #6 head. It starts out visibly square at the surface of the knob, and drops vertical about 1/16" of an inch to where it changes angle to about 5 degrees, then drops about 3/16" at that angle to the rounded arc bottom of the cut. When running your fingertips across the test grooves I cut in a flat rubber mudflap, comparing the weird groove to a standard #4/#4 groove, I can't tell the difference in the way the edges feel.

Also, there are variations of what I have done with the combos, and the way the blades are loaded. it is possible to bias the blade in the head, so one edge has a vertical wall, and the other wall has a lot more angle. Using a variation of this method it would be possible to make an actual undercut groove, with the cutting edge (trailing edge) of the groove sharper! than 90 degrees. I can't believe the exact groove shape is going to matter much though because the edge is going to round over from wear in a few months. The factor that leads me to the weird groove concept is dirt ejection. The test mudflap is again a good example. The #4/#4 "worm" (rubber that was cut out of its groove), resists being put in and out of its groove with a small noticable amount of resistance. The weird combo #5 blade / #6 head "worm" goes in and out of its groove with much less resistance. Now you are thinking "that's why it won't work well". I would guess that the snow / dirt doesnt have to stay in the groove ALL THE WAY AROUND the tire as it rotates, but rather just has to fill the grooves as the grooves are presented to the snow/dirt as they rotate into the snow/dirt, and grind across it. Even if the snow/dirt falls out as soon as the grooved knob leaves the surface of the ground, the concept is working. In fact, if it falls out immediately I'd say it is perfect. A full groove of dirt coming back around and contacting the surface again is going to be a lot less effective than an open groove.

Thanks for the input on the safety factor. I will wear my leather gloves for protection from possible blade breakage. The blades are sharp as ****, so it would be a heck of a gouge. There is probably a blade breakage potential with whatever combination of blades and heads you use, so let's all be careful out there.

I think you are absolutely wrong. It only makes sense that the easier the snow falls out of that groove, the less traction you will have. The groove needs to be able to grab and hold the snow for this theory to work. The better it holds, the better the traction. This is only my opinion, but it just doesn't seem to make sense any other way.

I'll be doing mine soon. I just ordered my groover with a #5 and a #4 head. Did anyone make a guide, or is it easy enough to do freehand?. I am also thinking of doing the front tires with the same pattern as the back. The crosscut grooves don't seem like they would be any more beneficial. Again just my opinion.

This was a great thread. Do you think maybe the OP has some stock in the grooving tool company. It definitely boosted their sales. :laughing::laughing:

 

[jimgerken]

I am also thinking of doing the front tires with the same pattern as the back. The crosscut grooves don't seem like they would be any more beneficial. Again just my opinion.

:

The crosscut front lug was intended for steering effect. It makes sense to me that you'd like more steering up front and more forward traction in back.

 

[FastPauly]

Holy Smokes!!.....this tire grooving thing turned in to being more complicated than what I thought it to be. Glad I numbered all my black worms and the place where they crawled out of.....now just need to find what glue to use to put them back where they came from.

 

[k0ua]

Holy Smokes!!.....this tire grooving thing turned in to being more complicated than what I thought it to be. Glad I numbered all my black worms and the place where they crawled out of.....now just need to find what glue to use to put them back where they came from.

Reckon you could use them for bait?:laughing:

James K0UA

 

[Deadman]

The side cuts on the fronts are for side-traction. My front end was always sliding sideways, so thats why I cut them the way i did. The fronts don't do much for forward traction in my case, because I have something heavy on the back, so the backs are usually doing most of the work.

I cut them on angles, so they will still offer some forward traction, but more stability. I wouldn't change it for anything. They helped keep the front end planted in the slippery snow, and I love it. R4 tires are known for having minimal side-traction.

 

[gladehound]

Actually the edges are very nearly square, when using the weird combo of #5 cutter on the #6 head. It starts out visibly square at the surface of the knob, and drops vertical about 1/16" of an inch to where it changes angle to about 5 degrees, then drops about 3/16" at that angle to the rounded arc bottom of the cut. When running your fingertips across the test grooves I cut in a flat rubber mudflap, comparing the weird groove to a standard #4/#4 groove, I can't tell the difference in the way the edges feel.

Also, there are variations of what I have done with the combos, and the way the blades are loaded. it is possible to bias the blade in the head, so one edge has a vertical wall, and the other wall has a lot more angle. Using a variation of this method it would be possible to make an actual undercut groove, with the cutting edge (trailing edge) of the groove sharper! than 90 degrees. I can't believe the exact groove shape is going to matter much though because the edge is going to round over from wear in a few months. The factor that leads me to the weird groove concept is dirt ejection. The test mudflap is again a good example. The #4/#4 "worm" (rubber that was cut out of its groove), resists being put in and out of its groove with a small noticable amount of resistance. The weird combo #5 blade / #6 head "worm" goes in and out of its groove with much less resistance. Now you are thinking "that's why it won't work well". I would guess that the snow / dirt doesnt have to stay in the groove ALL THE WAY AROUND the tire as it rotates, but rather just has to fill the grooves as the grooves are presented to the snow/dirt as they rotate into the snow/dirt, and grind across it. Even if the snow/dirt falls out as soon as the grooved knob leaves the surface of the ground, the concept is working. In fact, if it falls out immediately I'd say it is perfect. A full groove of dirt coming back around and contacting the surface again is going to be a lot less effective than an open groove.

Thanks for the input on the safety factor. I will wear my leather gloves for protection from possible blade breakage. The blades are sharp as ****, so it would be a heck of a gouge. There is probably a blade breakage potential with whatever combination of blades and heads you use, so let's all be careful out there.

I want to make a distinction here. The optimal tire for mud and the optimal tire for snow are two very different tires. For optimal snow/ice traction, you want the tire to hold snow. That way when you drive across some very compacted snow/ice that your edges cannot bit into, the snow on your tire allows you to stick to it and you get traction. If the snow falls out before you get on the ice, no traction! Mud tires are the oposite. You want to clear the mud. Snow tires have thousands of tinny cuts. Mud tires have giant blocks and giant spaces. Snow tires are made of soft porus rubber. Mud tires use hard rubber so that the lugs wont tear out. I actually don't believe that grooving an R-4 will make it any better in mud. Even the big spaces between lugs sometires get packed with mud. A little 1/4-1/2 inche groove is going to fill right up. Especially at the slow speeds tractor tires rotate. So by making the gooves with angled sides, I think you will gain almost nothing in mud but lose a lot in snow/ice. JMHO.

 

[JP11]

Glad I read this thread. I'll be cutting my R4s for sure. Rears for pushing, and the fronts to keep the side shifting down. I hear that's the biggest issue with the FEL mounted blade I'm going to use.

JP

 

[Deadman]

Glad I read this thread. I'll be cutting my R4s for sure. Rears for pushing, and the fronts to keep the side shifting down. I hear that's the biggest issue with the FEL mounted blade I'm going to use.

JP

This is why I never put a Blade on my Tractor. My R4's would just slide sideways if i angled the blade. I'm sure they are better now, but I still don't think the R4 is a very good tire for side traction. Before cutting them, they were absolutely Horrible as far as side traction goes. I know they are better now, but I just havent had any job to put them to the test yet!

 

[Deadman]

Anyone else get some seat time, or tire cutting time?

I used mine in 20+ inch heavy slop snow last week, and it does awesome. I can't think of any other mod that has helped as much as these cuts in the tires!