Oil & Fuel Diesel fuel additives are so inexpensive to use.

[Snobdds]

Methanol or ethanol will absorb small amounts of water like what happens when water vapor in a fuel tank condenses but cannot clear large volumes of water that might be dispensed from a bad load of fuel. I had one 5 gallon can of fuel from a service area that contained almost a full gallon of water. No additives will clear that.

Additives can prevent growth of algae but cannot clear it once the algae bloom has clogged up the fuel. Only filtration can clear debris.

I still don't think any additives would have saved that trucker from what was clearly a tank of bad fuel.

That is an absolute extreme example to try and correlate to normal conditions. A person could go an entire lifetime and never experience such a situation.

If a station is dispensing fuel with that much water in it...it will destroy new common rail diesels with HPFP rather quick. That station is a litigation lawyers bread and butter, once they figured out how many motors water in fuel destroyed.

 

[IslandTractor]

That is an absolute extreme example to try and correlate to normal conditions. A person could go an entire lifetime and never experience such a situation. If a station is dispensing fuel with that much water in it...it will destroy new common rail diesels with HPFP rather quick. That station is a litigation lawyers bread and butter, once they figured out how many motors water in fuel destroyed.

I agree but my response was to a comment claiming that a trucker with engine damage due to a bad tank of fuel would have been saved if he'd only used additives. Debate continues on whether engine longevity is affected but I think it is fair to state unequivocally that additives will not protect an engine from a truly bad tank of fuel.

 

[AxleHub]

I agree but my response was to a comment claiming that a trucker with engine damage due to a bad tank of fuel would have been saved if he'd only used additives. Debate continues on whether engine longevity is affected but I think it is fair to state unequivocally that additives will not protect an engine from a truly bad tank of fuel.

Whete did inever state "engine damage" ?? Your response was to my example and you created a far greater severity than my statement. My example was a semi truckers tanks had to be dumped and cleaned and filters changed. Nothing about engine damaged.

 

[IslandTractor]

Whete did inever state "engine damage" ?? Your response was to my example and you created a far greater severity than my statement. My example was a semi truckers tanks had to be dumped and cleaned and filters changed. Nothing about engine damaged.

Ok my bad. But, fuel additives would not have changed anything for the trucker so what was your point?

 

[daugen]

I guess I'm very lucky. Less than a mile away is a little corner grocery store/grill with gas pumps. The end pump is 93 octane ethanol free, and I just filled up my five gallon can yesterday for $2.69 a gallon. Yes, I can buy regular unleaded for 50 cents less per gallon. But this place pumps a ton of this gas to landscapers.

My import car repair place was very familiar with VW's and other make's problems with gas common rail injection systems. I was told that as low as 50 or 60k miles the fuel pump and other parts are failing allegedly due to our gas. VW has enough problems with their diesels; now they and other Euro makes are having problems, maybe because Bosch makes all their fuel pumps.

JD seems to want moly in their greases btw; I asked. I tried their nice green grease, clashed horribly with my Kubota's orange...

Having owned large diesel engines in a boat, and having been a yacht broker for three years in Ft Lauderdale learning for sure the realities of diesel engine
ownership, everyone down South uses additives for algae. Biobor is sold everywhere. I always used Power Service and my old 8V71TI's absolutely smoked less when using additives. And started immediately. So I became an additive believer. We have no control over what is really in the tank of fuel being delivered to us. The station gets it from a supplier and often that fuel is bought due to low price. And delivered in tankers with no names on the side. And since the industry has no self imposed watchdogs (who is testing this stuff to make sure it meets spec and then publicize the results, continually), we have no idea what additives have already been added, and yes, if they have, adding more is likely an utter waste of time and money. But we don't know, and we don't want the potential downside, so we use them. And they don't hurt anything it appears if you use too much. So at least there is potential upside and no apparent downside, particularly as the cost of the additives is remarkably coming down.

somewhere I read that adding kerosene to diesel was an original additive.

Let's all remember that what is needed in Miami is likely not what is needed in Bar Harbor.

 

[AxleHub]

Ok my bad. But, fuel additives would not have changed anything for the trucker so what was your point?

I had previously written:

1. An additive that acts as a "dryer" for water.

2. An additive that helps correct algae issues.

Like gelling issues . . an additive can help it from developing or help it from accelerating. That's also true with either 1. Or 2.


"My Point" is that haf my trucker friend been using additives - it would havevstopped algae from getying started. It also would have reduced moisture in his tanks.

It is not reasonable to think that "a load of bad fuel" is limited to only one truck being affected . . As no others had the reaction he did when he added only 50 gallons and ithers added much more. But it is
reasonable to believe that a small problem in the fuel
When added to an exisying issue in his tanks . . Was the trigger for the problem.

Again "My Point" is . . had he been using additives already . . His tanks could have been healthy enough to not be so effected by the added fuel.

Additives are imo a very small investment in keeping the system strong and capable of absorbing an occasional weak fuel situation. Which is why I quoted above and from my previous postings that

"an additive can help it from developing or help it from accelerating."

 

[IslandTractor]

I had previously written:

1. An additive that acts as a "dryer" for water.

2. An additive that helps correct algae issues.

Like gelling issues . . an additive can help it from developing or help it from accelerating. That's also true with either 1. Or 2.


"My Point" is that haf my trucker friend been using additives - it would havevstopped algae from getying started. It also would have reduced moisture in his tanks.

It is not reasonable to think that "a load of bad fuel" is limited to only one truck being affected . . As no others had the reaction he did when he added only 50 gallons and ithers added much more. But it is
reasonable to believe that a small problem in the fuel
When added to an exisying issue in his tanks . . Was the trigger for the problem.

Again "My Point" is . . had he been using additives already . . His tanks could have been healthy enough to not be so effected by the added fuel.

Additives are imo a very small investment in keeping the system strong and capable of absorbing an occasional weak fuel situation. Which is why I quoted above and from my previous postings that

"an additive can help it from developing or help it from accelerating."

You are bouncing around here. You stated in your original post about your trucker friend that he got a bad load of fuel. I presume that means a tank of fuel contaminated with sufficient water and debris to affect engine performance as he had to have the fuel pumped out. No additive would have changed that scenario at all. Algae is not a problem for long haul truckers who go through a tank of fuel in a day. Algae is a big problem for boaters and perhaps for other situations where fuel sits in warm temperatures for months before being consumed. Additives do nothing to protect a tank or make it "healthy enough not to be effected (sic) by the added fuel". If you dump 50 gallons of contaminated fuel into a 130 gallon tank of fuel, you have 130 gallons of contaminated fuel regardless of what additives you put in. The only way to clear the fuel is to "polish" it by passing it multiple times through filters.

You are simply dreaming if you think additives will have any impact on a seriously contaminated load of fuel oil. If additives did protect the way you wish they did, the additive manufacturers would be marketing exactly that and have demonstrations of bad fuel being added without consequence. Doesn't happen. Biocides are important for fuel that sits for a long time especially in warm climates. Biocides do not clear algae from fuel they can only prevent them from growing. Drying agents can help for the same reason if fuel isn't consumed regularly and just collects condensation but drying agents cannot handle even 1-2% water in contaminated fuel. Anti gelling can help in very cold climates though winter fuel is generally adequate.

I personally am still dubious about the lubricity claims as there haven't been any outcome data from any reliable source published to my knowledge. I do agree that is an open question but think the onus is on the additive manufacturers to demonstrate real world benefits not simply lab results. All the rest of the claims about additives are simply marketing hype swallowed by the consumer as best I can tell. Perhaps there is some milspec out there that shows otherwise but I find it very hard to believe that the military wouldn't demand these aftermarket additives if they had been shown to improve reliability and durability. In fact it would be shocking if they ignored something easy to do that would improve combat readiness or survivability in battle. I'd imagine that big fleet owners like UPS or FedEx would similarly have well known policies about additives. I haven't heard that any of them do. It seems mostly independent truckers and individual diesel owners who buy into the aftermarket additive claims. And those are exactly the folks who have the least access to real engineering data and cost benefit analysis. Maybe someone can provide real evidence to the contrary but I've never seen it.

 

[Turbys_1700]

I run Power Service in my Ford 4610 SU because I ran it in my New Holland 1720. Like Daugen stated cold is not necessarily the issue here in NC but the possibility of bad diesel is. Algae can happen in units that are not used regularly like boats and such. Does it help? Never had an issue. Would I have had an issue without using it? Don't know.

Ford did not specify SCA additives for their engines in the 70's. When some of them developed cavitation issues then they recommended it. Just because a manufacturer does not recommend a specific treatment does not mean it is not needed. Ford later updated the blocks on those engines to deal with cavitation but still recommend SCA's which I use in my 4610.

 

[IslandTractor]

I run Power Service in my Ford 4610 SU because I ran it in my New Holland 1720. Like Daugen stated cold is not necessarily the issue here in NC but the possibility of bad diesel is. Algae can happen in units that are not used regularly like boats and such. Does it help? Never had an issue. Would I have had an issue without using it? Don't know.

Ford did not specify SCA additives for their engines in the 70's. When some of them developed cavitation issues then they recommended it. Just because a manufacturer does not recommend a specific treatment does not mean it is not needed. Ford later updated the blocks on those engines to deal with cavitation but still recommend SCA's which I use in my 4610.

The SCA additive story is interesting but shows these things can be double edged swords when insufficient data is available. People who added SCA additives to red coolant actually made matters worse for their engines.

I understand the argument that "just because a manufacturer does not recommend a specific treatment does not mean it is not needed". There is some truth to that but it is also very dangerous territory. I hear the same sort of argument from health food advocates all the time. "Just because the FDA says you only need X amount of a vitamin doesn't mean that more isn't better". But in fact, using the vitamin analogy, there are other considerations. Consuming excess vitamins, like vitamin C, that are water soluble is no problem because the excess is simply pee'd out within a few hours and does neither good nor harm. On the other hand, oil soluble vitamins can actually cause severe disease in large quantities. Vitamin A overdoses can kill you. Point is that "just because the manufacturer doesn't recommend it" is only half the information you need. You also need to know what the potential downside is.

With diesel additives the downside seems limited to loss of the additive cost so I understand why people are comfortable using them. Placebos make people feel good and so long as they don't do harm it's difficult to argue strongly against them.

Too bad we don't have an FDA like organization that screens additive company claims and requires hard data of both efficacy and safety before marketing.

 

[LD1]

I always wonder how something diluted at a 400 to 1 ratio can do anything other than,,,

Have wondered the same thing about other products. Like herbicides and 2-4d, roundup, etc and all that other stuff that gets sprayed on fields that is heavily diluted. Always wondered how that worked.....but it just does.

As to the diesel issue.......the general consensus from many in the field that I have talked to is that if you always use fresh fuel, there is little to worry about with a modern diesel.

IF you live in a climate that varies like mine, and we have both winter and summer diesel available depending on the time of the year.....and you have a bulk storage tank that lasts several months. Then the need for a winter additive is a real concern at times.

As is algae if you have untreated fuel left sitting.

My truck holds 35 gallons. It gets used to haul my tractor in the summer for business, and used for plowing snow in the winter. Depending on the jobs, and the snowfall, its not uncommon to go 3-months between fill ups. Thus algae is a real concern.

I purchased my 5.9L cummins truck at 70k miles about 6 years ago. it currently has 95k miles. What I assume was the OEM pump, went out at 85k miles. 1.5 years and 8k miles later, the bosch CP3 went out again. It was sent in for warranty evaluation and denied due to contamination.

Its easy to point a finger at poor fuel.....but what the h3ll is a guy supposed to do? How can one prove poor fuel when you use several different stations? And these are all large truck-stop type stations? Dont notice all the big trucks breaking down as a result. So I have to trust that the fuel company has their ***** together and the issue is with ME and not driving often enough to always ensure fresh fuel in there. (and yes, I keep the fuel filter changed every year, which is ~6k miles. and about 4-5 times a year I flip the lever to drain any water out of the bottom of the filter bowl).

Weather additives work or not, I have no idea. But every single company that rebuilds these bosch pumps that I have talked to all said I need to run some type of algacide at the very least. So for less than 10 cents per gallon, thats what I do. If it dont work....its not like it put me in the poor house. And if it does work, it will save me a few $1000 injector pumps every 25k miles, it was money very well spent.