Oil & Fuel dk45s injector pump problems at 500 hrs

[sherrym]

It may be worth the one minute's time it takes to disconnect the solenoid , take it out and see if the engine starts. If it does push your finger into the now open casing to stop the engine. Also , in my Kioti ,there are two fuses that will disable the solenoid if either fuse is blown .

We checked the 10 amp fuse in fuse box and it was ok. don't know where the other one would be. We found two 60 amp fuses one on each side of tractor taped to wiring harness and they both were ok also. Read a post in 2011 about a 25 amp fuse for the stop selenoid but i dont know where that one is. If anyone knows that would be great I would check.

As far as disconnecting and taking it out, mine has a plastic guide that the pump removal instructions says to be careful not to drop when removing selenoid. If you can help me with that I think it would be worth a try.

Also in that same 2011 post( this person had wiring to selenoid shorting out and kept blowing fuses) someone replied about if you hear two clicking noises when trying to start you may have a bad relay of stop selenoid. So listened again tonight and here it is.

When key goes from off to on I hear and feel one small click in the middle 4 prong relay switch on fire wall.
When key then goes from on to heat I hear and feel a loud click on metal end of stop selenoid.
When listen for about 5 or 10 seconds after this I hear and feel another click in the middle 4 prong relay switch on fire wall.
Then when turn key back to off hear and feel another click in metal end of stop selenoid.
We never went from heat to start we were just checking for clicks in firewall relays and the stop selenoid.

It would really be nice if it were that second 25 amp fuse that i cant find. That would be much better than a possible injector pump failure.

thanks so much all help is appreciated and needed.

 

[sherrym]

I realize the solenoid passed the "click" test but it looks like solenoid removal is one connector and two nuts (easy peazy) so I'd definitely check that before messing with the actual IP.

I just looked at my 2006 (serial number begins with F) DK45S which should be the same as yours. With the engine off (key removed) there is no resistance then I move the manual shutoff lever. However, if I switch the key on (like for pre-glow) I heal a loud click and I can feel a definite spring-like resistance when I move the manual shutoff. That's because the manual shutoff pushes the rack to the full off position (left) while the idle spring pushes the other way (right) trying to supply fuel to start the engine. If you don't fee a difference, switch off vs switch on, in the manual shutoff lever, then the rack is stuck in the off position. If it were me, I'd first remove the stop solenoid and the "solenoid guide (#21 in parts diagram) to make sure that's not the problem. I'm referring to this parts diagram: OEM Parts

If that doesn't work, I'd next remove the oil fill flange (#25) which, I believe, will give you access ti the rack pin. Then you can grasp the rack pin to feel if it's jammed, and possibly free it. It should be free to move with the stop solenoid removed. If it's jammed, the IP is suspect.

I agree i have the same parts diagram. One more question though, in the pump removal instructions for ck35 they give you a top view after part# 14 the stop lever1 is removed so you can see the stop quide part#21 and they say be careful not to drop the stop guide. The instructions have you remove part# 14 before you remove stop selenoid so i am wondering if you remove stop selenoid only how do you prevent dropping the stop quide part#21.

I also agree that based on the pump removal instructions that you would have to remove the oil filler flange part#25 to move ip rack i don't see how you would do it by just removing stop selenoid.

Your comments give me great reasurrance since i feel we are looking at the same tractor with the same parts.
Thanks so much

We also put tractor in full throttle tonight and cracked nut on injector line one right above ip but still no fuel.

Do you know about second fuse to the stop selenoid, I can only find one 10amp fuse in fuse box and it is ok.

thanks again

 

[dennis52]

When I replaced my solenoid and the 10 amp blown fuse, the engine still wouldn't turn over. That's when I went back to the manual ( after the usual blasphemies ) and, in the fuse box, found another fuse that had also been blown by the seized, and very hot, stop solenoid. I'll have a look at the fuse box today and try to remember which one it was. Otherwise, just check the other fuses. I have a DS4510 model but am pretty sure it's a similar setup. Good luck

Found it....... the 10 amp alternator/ hold coil fuse had also blown

 

[sherrym]

When I replaced my solenoid and the 10 amp blown fuse, the engine still wouldn't turn over. That's when I went back to the manual ( after the usual blasphemies ) and, in the fuse box, found another fuse that had also been blown by the seized, and very hot, stop solenoid. I'll have a look at the fuse box today and try to remember which one it was. Otherwise, just check the other fuses. I have a DS4510 model but am pretty sure it's a similar setup. Good luck

Found it....... the 10 amp alternator/ hold coil fuse had also blown

yes all fuses in fuse box were checked first before we tried anything else and all were good. Ours says alternator/stop engine selenoid on fuse box and I rechecked it tonight and it is good. So what was first 10amp fuse replaced called?

thanks for trying. We were also hoping for an easy fix, but when fuses checked out and inspection of wires and could find nothing then went on this site and started seeing the injector pump problems that sounded like our problem. we also checked all fuel lines to make sure nothing was clogged but all was good and even got 8psi on fuel line going from fuel filter to ip to make sure lift pump was good. We also changed fuel filter and bled system. So next thing will be to rule out bad stop selenoid or bad relay to stop selenoid before suspect ip failure.

thanks i wish it were just a fuse

 

[ritcheyvs]

From the post I have read there seems to be three schools of thought.

1. bad fuel or low sulfur (not enough lubricant) fuel the problem.

2. bad material/design of pump especially the gears/teeth

3. relay slamming stop selenoid violently and causing rack in pump to jam.

I have ruled out bad fuel for now because same supplier for six years and two other tractors are fine.

Have you heard of any other causes for this problem other than some debris entered the pump?

IMO, bad fuel is a red herring. poor lubrication might cause the IP plunger to wear excessively but there is little motion and little force on the gears and rack so there is no way the gears or rack should fail from friction. Looking at the photos of the failed gears and rack, teeth broke off, and that ain't wear. So I agree that #1 is bogus in this case. Also, the chance of debris from fuel getting into the IP is nill, any debris could only come from inside the engine.

The old stop solenoid (SS) design used an electro-magnet to push the rack to the stop position and such a force can be quite abrupt. But the new design we have uses a spring to push the rack to off, which should be much more moderate; the solenoid in this design retracts a rod against the spring to relieve the "off" force on the rack. So I think #3 is bogus for this new design.

So I vote for #2: defective material or workmanship. I owned two 30-year-old Diesel Mercedes with Bosch IPs which have run 200-400K miles and are still running fine with no IP failures. I've been active on a classic MBZ list for 15 years and I don't recall anyone mentioning a MBZ IP failure. So I must believe that there is a problem in the design or (more likely) manufacture of the IPs in our tractors. Assuming the IP is the culprit, maybe Kioti will make some adjustment for good will.

Still hope this will turn out to be something easier and cheaper to fix.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I agree i have the same parts diagram. One more question though, in the pump removal instructions for ck35 they give you a top view after part# 14 the stop lever1 is removed so you can see the stop quide part#21 and they say be careful not to drop the stop guide. The instructions have you remove part# 14 before you remove stop selenoid so i am wondering if you remove stop selenoid only how do you prevent dropping the stop quide part#21.

I also agree that based on the pump removal instructions that you would have to remove the oil filler flange part#25 to move ip rack i don't see how you would do it by just removing stop selenoid.

I've never been inside my engine and haven't researched the shop manual, so you are beyond me at this point (especially WRT part #21). Maybe others can comment. I don't have experience with the fuses. Let me know if can help otherwise.

 

[dennis52]

yes all fuses in fuse box were checked first before we tried anything else and all were good. Ours says alternator/stop engine selenoid on fuse box and I rechecked it tonight and it is good. So what was first 10amp fuse replaced called?

thanks for trying. We were also hoping for an easy fix, but when fuses checked out and inspection of wires and could find nothing then went on this site and started seeing the injector pump problems that sounded like our problem. we also checked all fuel lines to make sure nothing was clogged but all was good and even got 8psi on fuel line going from fuel filter to ip to make sure lift pump was good. We also changed fuel filter and bled system. So next thing will be to rule out bad stop selenoid or bad relay to stop selenoid before suspect ip failure.

thanks i wish it were just a fuse

One fuse is called " Engine Stop Solenoid" and the other called "alternator/hold coil" . If you have already checked all fuses then it's looking like the problem is elsewhere.

 

[grsthegreat]

IMO, bad fuel is a red herring. poor lubrication might cause the IP plunger to wear excessively but there is little motion and little force on the gears and rack so there is no way the gears or rack should fail from friction. Looking at the photos of the failed gears and rack, teeth broke off, and that ain't wear. So I agree that #1 is bogus in this case. Also, the chance of debris from fuel getting into the IP is nill, any debris could only come from inside the engine.

The old stop solenoid (SS) design used an electro-magnet to push the rack to the stop position and such a force can be quite abrupt. But the new design we have uses a spring to push the rack to off, which should be much more moderate; the solenoid in this design retracts a rod against the spring to relieve the "off" force on the rack. So I think #3 is bogus for this new design.

So I vote for #2: defective material or workmanship. I owned two 30-year-old Diesel Mercedes with Bosch IPs which have run 200-400K miles and are still running fine with no IP failures. I've been active on a classic MBZ list for 15 years and I don't recall anyone mentioning a MBZ IP failure. So I must believe that there is a problem in the design or (more likely) manufacture of the IPs in our tractors. Assuming the IP is the culprit, maybe Kioti will make some adjustment for good will.

Still hope this will turn out to be something easier and cheaper to fix.

the IP replacement i helped with on that DK45 .... the IP we removed is made by Bosch.. the replacement was made by Bosch

 

[sherrym]

IMO, bad fuel is a red herring. poor lubrication might cause the IP plunger to wear excessively but there is little motion and little force on the gears and rack so there is no way the gears or rack should fail from friction. Looking at the photos of the failed gears and rack, teeth broke off, and that ain't wear. So I agree that #1 is bogus in this case. Also, the chance of debris from fuel getting into the IP is nill, any debris could only come from inside the engine.

The old stop solenoid (SS) design used an electro-magnet to push the rack to the stop position and such a force can be quite abrupt. But the new design we have uses a spring to push the rack to off, which should be much more moderate; the solenoid in this design retracts a rod against the spring to relieve the "off" force on the rack. So I think #3 is bogus for this new design.

So I vote for #2: defective material or workmanship. I owned two 30-year-old Diesel Mercedes with Bosch IPs which have run 200-400K miles and are still running fine with no IP failures. I've been active on a classic MBZ list for 15 years and I don't recall anyone mentioning a MBZ IP failure. So I must believe that there is a problem in the design or (more likely) manufacture of the IPs in our tractors. Assuming the IP is the culprit, maybe Kioti will make some adjustment for good will.

Still hope this will turn out to be something easier and cheaper to fix.

Thanks for inf on old solenoid design, that would also make me tend to vote for #2 as well. I agree that the pics show obvious breakage not wear. In the engine chapter you gave me it does mention that bosch K is the IP.

 

[sherrym]

One fuse is called " Engine Stop Solenoid" and the other called "alternator/hold coil" . If you have already checked all fuses then it's looking like the problem is elsewhere.

We only have one called "Alternator/stop engine solenoid" so we may have the newer design that scott is talking about and therefore only have one fuse. Would need to check with mechanic to make sure.

thanks for inf