Oil & Fuel dk45s injector pump problems at 500 hrs

[murphy1244]

Thanks. That's must be the manual for our 2006 DK45S tractors. The DK 35-50 manual on the Australian site is dated 2003. My paper DK45S manual and the DK451 manual on the Australian site are both dated Nov 2004. So now I just need to find the right paper manual. Any recommendations on how? Maybe I should can call MIE or LaVoie?

Yes call tony.

 

[sherrym]

Yes call tony.

maybe i should call tony also.

thanks murphy

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

maybe i should call tony also.

thanks murphy

I am sorry for not responding earlier. I have been out of town since wed 11th (family fun!). First vacation in years. Call me at my office and we can talk. Thought about reading everything but decided to send this to you instead. You can tell me what you have done then and i can determine next course of action.

Tony

 

[sherrym]

I am sorry for not responding earlier. I have been out of town since wed 11th (family fun!). First vacation in years. Call me at my office and we can talk. Thought about reading everything but decided to send this to you instead. You can tell me what you have done then and i can determine next course of action.

Tony

Will see if I can do that in next couple of days

thanks tony

 

[sherrym]

Looking at the workshop manuals on that Australian site, the ones for the DK45-50 workshop manual and DK451 workshop manual appear to apply to an older version of the stop solenoid. The EX35-50 manual appears to show the 2006 engine configuration we have. My paper manual appears to be identical to the 451 manual, which is not the same as my tractor. I find it really annoying that the manuals do not indicate the applicable tractor serial numbers. The OEM parts pages let you pick the version that applies to your tractor but I don't see any obvious way to pick the right version based on your s/n. I guess I'm spoiled by association with aerospace and also manuals for Mercedes cars where applicable serial numbers are always called out. I wonder if there is a workshop manual that's correct for our tractors.

Well bad news. I also replied with this info on Econ99 post but if anyone brings this one up then i guess they need to know the end of the story.

Rrmoved SS yesterday and it works fine. After out we reconnected electrical connector and grounded it to tractor then turned key to on and SS retracted like it should and when turned key off it pushed back out like it should. We then removed oil fill flange/plate and when tried to move IP rack pin to start(right) it was froze as tight as you can get.

So I guess next step is to replace IP.

I agree that finding the right manual for your tractor is almost like looking for a needle in a hay stack. But it does look like the EX manuals are the best.



Thanks for all the help Scott and to all the others who answered questons

 

[ritcheyvs]

Well bad news. ....Removed SS yesterday and it works fine. ... We then removed oil fill flange/plate and when tried to move IP rack pin to start(right) it was froze as tight as you can get. ...So I guess next step is to replace IP.

I agree that finding the right manual for your tractor is almost like looking for a needle in a hay stack. But it does look like the EX manuals are the best.

WRT the IP, you are probably right, sadly. But first look hard (where you removed the oil fill plate) to be sure the pump is actually jammed and not just one of the control levers. Almost all connections are via springs so an external jam should not be possible, but I'd check it anyway. Second, I'd recommend you see if your dealer will work with Kioti to get some consideration, like a discount on parts. This pump costs in the neighborhood of $1500 so not ain't chump change. It is absurd for an IP to fail at 500 hrs; that is obviously a defective design or defective parts. I know many Diesel Mercedes cars with Bosch inline IPs with many hundreds of thousands of miles; in fact good used IPs for these cars are cheap because they never fail (lots of supply, no demand). Given the numerous Kioti IP failures reported on just this list, these things should be recalled. So maybe you (and your dealer) can guilt Kioti into covering some of the cost.

I think I mentioned this before. After a long telecon with Tony, we determined that there is no really correct Kioti service manual for our (model C44) tractors. Bad on you again Kioti. The Kioti-specified manual is mostly correct but the information on the IP /stop solenoid arrangement is wrong. The later manuals (with correct engine stuff) show the wrong transmission, rear axle, etc. So you'll need to use the (wrong) newer manual to replace the IP.

If you reuse the old shims, I think your IP timing will be OK. Diesel timing isn't all that sensitive. Timing is adjusted by shimming under the IP flange but the IP-proper is a precise item so they should interchange. In any case, if it were me, I'd assemble it with the old shims and then check timing at some convenient date. If it's far enough out of time, then order shims to fix the timing. Also, remember to order new gaskets for any you might tear up removing the required access plates. In the past, I've had good luck with a gasket dressing called Hylomar which never really hardens and is easy to remove later without damage. Finally, I'd recommend photographing each spring and linkage before removing them (digital camera here). It's real easy to forget how they go, especially if you get interrupted or have to wait for a part.

 

[sherrym]

When we looked inside, I saw fork lever 1 and 2 with govenor spring 1 and 2 attached to fork lever 2. These fork levers moved very easy with one finger when pushed toward front of tractor, but it did feel like it was attached to govenor lever which I assume is located under throttle plate.

With both fork levers moved toward front of tractor and a light shinning through SS hole you could see the tip of the SS plastic guide touching the end of the rack. We tried to see if any linkage below manual stop lever plate(which was not removed) through the SS hole but no real room to get a good look because of radiator fan.

That was about all I could see was just the govenor spring 1 and 2 attached to fork lever2 and the SS plastic guide tip touching rack end. I was using two
fingers on the rack pin to try and move it but couldnt get it to budge.

When we took oil fill flange off the gasket stayed on and looks like new, just hope for same thing on IP shims and manual stop lever plate. Will probably order new gasket for intake manifold. I will see if I can find Hylomar.

If you can think of anything else to look at let me know. Earlier replies here or on econ99 talked about checking to see if SS plastic guide was stuck, but if it is to push against rack to shut it off then where I saw it is where I would think it should be. Not sure if should take manual stop lever plate off at this point to check for any linkages?

I will be taking pictures along the way.I also think these pumps should be lasting a lot longer than 500 hrs.

Thanks

 

[ritcheyvs]

I'm almost out of airspeed and ideas.

You'll need to pull that manual stop cover and withdraw the SS guide as part of IP removal. So maybe you'll want to that now just to be sure the SS guide isn't the problem (before spending $$$ on a new IP). I suspect you should temporarily reinstall (loosely) the SS to hold the SS guide in place until you can get a good grip on the SS guide to remove it. It would be a wonderful thing if the SS guide were the only problem.

Also, grainger may have a good thought WRT a local Diesel service shop. These IPs are pretty common; I think Mahindra and maybe Kubota use the same one. So if you have a local Diesel shop(s) that services IPs, it might be worth an hour or two on the phone to see if they can fix these things vs buying new.

I'm still baffled about the root cause here. This failure usually seems to happen on engine shutoff; so I suspect the violence of SS operation may be part of the cause. If so, the number of shutoff cycles (vs hours on the motor) may be the driver. In the old Mercedes/Bosch mechanical Diesel IPs, similar pumps run for many tens of thousands of hours with no problem, but there, the shutoff is vacuum operated and pretty gradual.

 

[sherrym]

I'm almost out of airspeed and ideas.

You'll need to pull that manual stop cover and withdraw the SS guide as part of IP removal. So maybe you'll want to that now just to be sure the SS guide isn't the problem (before spending $$$ on a new IP). I suspect you should temporarily reinstall (loosely) the SS to hold the SS guide in place until you can get a good grip on the SS guide to remove it. It would be a wonderful thing if the SS guide were the only problem.

Also, grainger may have a good thought WRT a local Diesel service shop. These IPs are pretty common; I think Mahindra and maybe Kubota use the same one. So if you have a local Diesel shop(s) that services IPs, it might be worth an hour or two on the phone to see if they can fix these things vs buying new.

I'm still baffled about the root cause here. This failure usually seems to happen on engine shutoff; so I suspect the violence of SS operation may be part of the cause. If so, the number of shutoff cycles (vs hours on the motor) may be the driver. In the old Mercedes/Bosch mechanical Diesel IPs, similar pumps run for many tens of thousands of hours with no problem, but there, the shutoff is vacuum operated and pretty gradual.

I thought about taking off manual stop lever to check the SS plastic guide but ran out of time, So may look at that next since it has to come off any way and yes I think using SS to hold guide until can get good grab on it is a good idea. I was thinking about a clothes hanger wire but SS should work as well.

There is supposed to be a good Diesel mechanic that works on IPs about 30 miles away so might give him a call to see what he says.

When we talked about violence of SS operation in earlier replies you felt we had the spring operated new design that would probably not cause the violent action. When we tested SS when out of tractor by turning key on and off it didnt seem that violent but when we saw the very tip top of gear on plunger and saw how tiny they are I am surprised they can hold up to any force coming against them. So you might have something there or the fact that bad material or a batch of defective gears could still be the root cause. It will be interesting to see what is broke. Hope to have new info in couple of days. Also when you compare how many times a car vs. a tractor is turned off my guess (at least in our case) is the car would have a lot more turn offs than a tractor unless you are using your tractor every day. Granted in one perticular day the tractor may get more turn offs than a car but total shutoff cyles vs hours on the motor I not to sure about that.

Thanks Scott you have been a lot of help

 

[sherrym]

took off SS and checked SS plastic guide it seemed to move fine. While plastic guide pulled out and trying to move rack on IP, it (rack) was still unbudgable. I have concluded the IP is broke and will need to be replaced. Will let you know when get any new information.

Thanks to all who have helped with this problem. I hope it can help someone else who might run into the same problem.