Do you think this device can be useful?
- Thread starter unclehan
- Start date
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Similar system is used on combines: 3 or 4 gear steps and belt variator.
Some of stepless tractors use symilar system, just variator is replaced with hydrostatics. )</font>
The thing with belt is that it's prone to slippage, especially under high torque. A combine probably doesn't have too much torque requirement. But on tasks where high torque is requires, a belt won't do the job.
I heard hydrostatics are less efficient under high load, is it true?
Some of stepless tractors use symilar system, just variator is replaced with hydrostatics. )</font>
The thing with belt is that it's prone to slippage, especially under high torque. A combine probably doesn't have too much torque requirement. But on tasks where high torque is requires, a belt won't do the job.
I heard hydrostatics are less efficient under high load, is it true?
frank_f15
Super Member, Rest in Peace
NOT beining an engineer, i can't imagine how it would work, but if u can get it to do all u say, SAVE FUEL, BE EFFICENT, AND RELIABLE, then u should first get a patent for it and go from there.
I think the device will be definately helpful as long as the following statement is mostly true:
certain tractors spend the majority of their operating time doing constant speed, constant load task. such as plowing, harvesting... ect
It's most helpful in situations where very little shifting is required.
In the cases where shifting is required, the device will be exactly like a regular gearbox. You shift with a clutch. But there wouldn't be much of an advantage (nor disadvantage) over a regular gearbox.
I'm not a farmer so I don't have a good idea of the nature of the tractor's operating environment. But the device will be very helpful in situations where the task will last a long time and don't require a shift in gear ratio, yet the device will allow a PRECISE gear ratio for that specific task, and that's when a regular gearbox cannot match.
I heard there are tractors with many gear ratios, some 16, some even over 30. I dont know why that is, so I'm assuming the precise gear ratio is very important to a tractor.
I'm definately into patenting it. However I'm not rich and patent takes thousands of dollars. So before I jump ahead I'd like to do an assessment.
Thanks.
certain tractors spend the majority of their operating time doing constant speed, constant load task. such as plowing, harvesting... ect
It's most helpful in situations where very little shifting is required.
In the cases where shifting is required, the device will be exactly like a regular gearbox. You shift with a clutch. But there wouldn't be much of an advantage (nor disadvantage) over a regular gearbox.
I'm not a farmer so I don't have a good idea of the nature of the tractor's operating environment. But the device will be very helpful in situations where the task will last a long time and don't require a shift in gear ratio, yet the device will allow a PRECISE gear ratio for that specific task, and that's when a regular gearbox cannot match.
I heard there are tractors with many gear ratios, some 16, some even over 30. I dont know why that is, so I'm assuming the precise gear ratio is very important to a tractor.
I'm definately into patenting it. However I'm not rich and patent takes thousands of dollars. So before I jump ahead I'd like to do an assessment.
Thanks.
Okay, this is the last question I'm going to ask on this topic.
There are certain types of tractors with many different gear ratios, sometimes even more than 16. Can someone tell me why a tractor need so many gear ratios?
Also, I heard the transmissions are pretty heavy. A person once told me a transmission on a Kubata tractor can be as heavy as 2500 lbs! Is it true?
If so, where can I find some info on the weight of the tractor transmissions? Or you guys can just tell me directly.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the help.
There are certain types of tractors with many different gear ratios, sometimes even more than 16. Can someone tell me why a tractor need so many gear ratios?
Also, I heard the transmissions are pretty heavy. A person once told me a transmission on a Kubata tractor can be as heavy as 2500 lbs! Is it true?
If so, where can I find some info on the weight of the tractor transmissions? Or you guys can just tell me directly.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the help.
ZJ_HR
Gold Member
On car you can regulate speed by pressing throttle. This is because you allways have more power than need to move vehicle.
1. On tractor, you use allmost full power to move (pull). So, to better use engine power you need more gear ratios, or vario. So, you change speed down when need more power to pull, and up when load drops, and you want to increase speed to be more efficient. And this is done often. That's why tractors have powershift (not pressing clutch, and not lost a pulling power or stop).
2. Tractors have PTO. And implement need constant speed for operation. You need different moving speeds. That's why variators are used on combines. Imagine mowing of grass. When you go to tall grass, you need to decrease, and when grass is weak you increase. That's why HST people like here.
To match these needs, some of Landini tractors have over 100 gear speed ratios.
By the way, what ratio of speed you can acchieve with your patent?
Hope this clear you a sight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
1. On tractor, you use allmost full power to move (pull). So, to better use engine power you need more gear ratios, or vario. So, you change speed down when need more power to pull, and up when load drops, and you want to increase speed to be more efficient. And this is done often. That's why tractors have powershift (not pressing clutch, and not lost a pulling power or stop).
2. Tractors have PTO. And implement need constant speed for operation. You need different moving speeds. That's why variators are used on combines. Imagine mowing of grass. When you go to tall grass, you need to decrease, and when grass is weak you increase. That's why HST people like here.
To match these needs, some of Landini tractors have over 100 gear speed ratios.
By the way, what ratio of speed you can acchieve with your patent?
Hope this clear you a sight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
To match these needs, some of Landini tractors have over 100 gear speed ratios.
By the way, what ratio of speed you can acchieve with your patent?
Hope this clear you a sight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
)</font>
The ratio of speed that can be achieved can be ANY real number between a predetermined range. This range can vary, depending on design. It's easy to make a range from 16:1 to 1:1 in the size of a shoebox. That's how compact it is.
I heard some tractors have gearbox that weighs more than 2000 lbs. I just can't see why. You need a lot of metal to get to that weight. The gears must be huge, and you need a lot of gears. True?
To match these needs, some of Landini tractors have over 100 gear speed ratios.
By the way, what ratio of speed you can acchieve with your patent?
Hope this clear you a sight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
)</font>
The ratio of speed that can be achieved can be ANY real number between a predetermined range. This range can vary, depending on design. It's easy to make a range from 16:1 to 1:1 in the size of a shoebox. That's how compact it is.
I heard some tractors have gearbox that weighs more than 2000 lbs. I just can't see why. You need a lot of metal to get to that weight. The gears must be huge, and you need a lot of gears. True?
MicroPilot
Veteran Member
Typically when a tractor is "working" it will be running at or near full throttle. To determine the ground speed, you select the appropriate gear.
I think your invention would do well in a tractor application. There are times on my tractor that one gear seems to slow and the next higher is too fast. My machine only has 4 gears in 3 ranges. 3 range is too fast and more suitable for road transport, and 1 range is too slow, only suitable for extreme pulling tasks. This leaves me 2 range with 4 gears (speeds) to choose from for mowing etc.
I think your invention would do well in a tractor application. There are times on my tractor that one gear seems to slow and the next higher is too fast. My machine only has 4 gears in 3 ranges. 3 range is too fast and more suitable for road transport, and 1 range is too slow, only suitable for extreme pulling tasks. This leaves me 2 range with 4 gears (speeds) to choose from for mowing etc.
DiskDoctr
Platinum Member
UncleHan,
A few tips about patents.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. I hold several and have written several very complex ones (>50 pages submitted). Although I have worked closely with patent attorneys for years and have handled most of our IP (intellectual property), and yes, spent over $100k in one quarter (lots of justifications with CFO over that one /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif), the info I offer hear is purely anecdotal and should not be considered any type of legal advice. Whew...
1. Determine what is patentable. Is it new technology, a new use for technology, or an improvement on some design? You can patent a device, or a process. You should look at several options, as one may not be available and one search can have several criteria, instead of new searches each time. This saves time and money.
2. Write up a description of the product and what makes it unique.
3. DO NOT SHOW OR SELL IT before applying for a provisional patent. (Patents take years, provisionals are temporary placeholders to protect your rights during the interim. No guarantee of a patent issue). If you must show it to someone, get and NDA (Non-disclosure agreement). Under no circumstances accept any $$ for a test or demo product until the provisional is filed. Otherwise you forfeit rights since it is considered to be sold commercially. Also affects international rights a great deal if you show it at a trade show or something before the provisional.
4. Do your own search to see what else is out there, and what can be unique about yours. It will also help you to read some patents. Some are good, some are bad. If you ever have to defend your rights, the only thing you have is what is in your patent. US Patent and Trademark Search page
5. When all is ready, write your "claims." Although your patent will have info about other people's products, the shortcomings, and why this product is useful, the claims at the end are the ONLY things that are protected. ie. If you file a patent for a red truck with a special motor, transmission, and wheels, but your only claim is for the special process used to paint it red, then you only have protection for the paint process, even though you've detailed the entire vehicle.
Be careful on this part, since a patent requires you must provide enough details that a person of average skills or knowledge in the given field should be able to reproduce your product. This info isn't released for public search during the provisional stage, but is during the issue. [Note, this is changing and may have already- ability to search provisional applications]
6. Be sure to list ALL similar patents and unpatented products in your application and explain how yours is different. The patent office will find it, or the courts will overturn your patent if you don't. You stand a much better chance by detailing the differences and uniqueness of your product, since it is part of the application and therefore was already "ruled upon" (not exactly) by the patent examiner. If anyone else has ever built anything using your unique items and can show that even one was ever sold at any time, it is prior art and must be considered.
7. Forget those "do it yourself" patent kits. You can get the forms for free, and a badly prepared or written patent application (read: inexperienced, DIY) isn't worth much, even if granted. Once you've done a few, it's up to you. I typically write most of the applications and such, then give them to the patent attorney who reviews, questions, makes changes, etc. You pay by the hour, so the more work you do, the less you pay for... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
8. When filing, pay the extra money to submit internationally. This is rather inexpensive and holds your place for whatever participating countries you select (part of an international patent treaty with something like 100 countries), and it is very cheap. Now, within a year, you have to select and apply in any of those countries you wish to protect, and that is expensive, but it gives you a year to develop your product and explore the market and partners (and save up $$ /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
Remember, you can always drop some of the extra countries without penalty, but for many you can't go back and add them later- especially if you've sold any units or displayed it anywhere. Also, during patent searches, many do not check if the "placeholder applications" actually resulted in a patent being filed or awarded. This can be a soft deterent to interlopers, but is really no protection- sort of a bluff.
9. Do not disclose. Do not disclose. Do not disclose.
10. See # 9 and repeat.
As much as we'd all love to see your design, and you're probably excited and want to share it with others, posting it on TBN will be followed by a loud whooshing sound- those are your rights and protections, and any future earning potentials being sucked away. It may still be worth $$, but a patented one is worth much more. Otherwise it comes down to who can make them faster and cheaper.
Anyway, lots and lots involved with patents. Be smart, or bring lots of $$ to an attorney. Otherwise, try to be in the middle by being smarter and spend less $$ and still get a good product.
Good luck.
-JC
PS- I work with NDA's all the time. If you want to bounce it off me, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you an NDA so you can share the info with me. Sometimes I take on extra projects and bring them to market- sometimes...
A few tips about patents.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. I hold several and have written several very complex ones (>50 pages submitted). Although I have worked closely with patent attorneys for years and have handled most of our IP (intellectual property), and yes, spent over $100k in one quarter (lots of justifications with CFO over that one /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif), the info I offer hear is purely anecdotal and should not be considered any type of legal advice. Whew...
1. Determine what is patentable. Is it new technology, a new use for technology, or an improvement on some design? You can patent a device, or a process. You should look at several options, as one may not be available and one search can have several criteria, instead of new searches each time. This saves time and money.
2. Write up a description of the product and what makes it unique.
3. DO NOT SHOW OR SELL IT before applying for a provisional patent. (Patents take years, provisionals are temporary placeholders to protect your rights during the interim. No guarantee of a patent issue). If you must show it to someone, get and NDA (Non-disclosure agreement). Under no circumstances accept any $$ for a test or demo product until the provisional is filed. Otherwise you forfeit rights since it is considered to be sold commercially. Also affects international rights a great deal if you show it at a trade show or something before the provisional.
4. Do your own search to see what else is out there, and what can be unique about yours. It will also help you to read some patents. Some are good, some are bad. If you ever have to defend your rights, the only thing you have is what is in your patent. US Patent and Trademark Search page
5. When all is ready, write your "claims." Although your patent will have info about other people's products, the shortcomings, and why this product is useful, the claims at the end are the ONLY things that are protected. ie. If you file a patent for a red truck with a special motor, transmission, and wheels, but your only claim is for the special process used to paint it red, then you only have protection for the paint process, even though you've detailed the entire vehicle.
Be careful on this part, since a patent requires you must provide enough details that a person of average skills or knowledge in the given field should be able to reproduce your product. This info isn't released for public search during the provisional stage, but is during the issue. [Note, this is changing and may have already- ability to search provisional applications]
6. Be sure to list ALL similar patents and unpatented products in your application and explain how yours is different. The patent office will find it, or the courts will overturn your patent if you don't. You stand a much better chance by detailing the differences and uniqueness of your product, since it is part of the application and therefore was already "ruled upon" (not exactly) by the patent examiner. If anyone else has ever built anything using your unique items and can show that even one was ever sold at any time, it is prior art and must be considered.
7. Forget those "do it yourself" patent kits. You can get the forms for free, and a badly prepared or written patent application (read: inexperienced, DIY) isn't worth much, even if granted. Once you've done a few, it's up to you. I typically write most of the applications and such, then give them to the patent attorney who reviews, questions, makes changes, etc. You pay by the hour, so the more work you do, the less you pay for... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
8. When filing, pay the extra money to submit internationally. This is rather inexpensive and holds your place for whatever participating countries you select (part of an international patent treaty with something like 100 countries), and it is very cheap. Now, within a year, you have to select and apply in any of those countries you wish to protect, and that is expensive, but it gives you a year to develop your product and explore the market and partners (and save up $$ /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
Remember, you can always drop some of the extra countries without penalty, but for many you can't go back and add them later- especially if you've sold any units or displayed it anywhere. Also, during patent searches, many do not check if the "placeholder applications" actually resulted in a patent being filed or awarded. This can be a soft deterent to interlopers, but is really no protection- sort of a bluff.
9. Do not disclose. Do not disclose. Do not disclose.
10. See # 9 and repeat.
As much as we'd all love to see your design, and you're probably excited and want to share it with others, posting it on TBN will be followed by a loud whooshing sound- those are your rights and protections, and any future earning potentials being sucked away. It may still be worth $$, but a patented one is worth much more. Otherwise it comes down to who can make them faster and cheaper.
Anyway, lots and lots involved with patents. Be smart, or bring lots of $$ to an attorney. Otherwise, try to be in the middle by being smarter and spend less $$ and still get a good product.
Good luck.
-JC
PS- I work with NDA's all the time. If you want to bounce it off me, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you an NDA so you can share the info with me. Sometimes I take on extra projects and bring them to market- sometimes...