Doolittle Raiders

[turnkey4099]

Have you read the book? I have, and will state up front that it is misleading. The author used the book as a liberal vehicle to castigate America for the perceived inequities experienced by women and minorities during the war and in our armed services. While they may have been real to an extent, they pale in comparison to the inequities (read "crimes against humanity") others were suffering and against which we were fighting.

The term "Greatest Generation" is not just about how long and how hard they fought...it's about 50 million people who died worldwide as a direct result of the war. It's about evil and inhumanity on a scale that is almost inconceivable, perpetrated by modern governments that perverted science and history for their own evil purposes...but even more important, it's about how a whole generation in this country joined together with a resolve...an effort and determination that was apparent and pervasive in the cities, towns, governments, schools, movie theaters and kitchens of every home and institution in America. It was about sacrifice and hard work on an unimaginable scale...even children contributed through scrap and paper drives; buying war stamps at school, doing without new clothing, shoes, butter, sugar, etc. It was about housewives saving tin cans and cooking oil for the war effort and recycling their aluminum cookware; it was about doing without tires and gasoline and beef that we might win as a unified and determined nation.

It was about young men and women volunteering by the millions to join up for the effort; many to be deployed and never return again. It was about giving that extra effort on a national scale that has not been seen before or since. It was about working together with a unity and determination that was palpable; victory was on their minds constantly and relentlessly and they believed in their cause with an abiding faith in God and the unequivocal knowledge that we would prevail. That's what it was about.

Very good post!

 

[turnkey4099]

While the Doolittle Raid was gutsy, it was not militarily significant. Today such a raid would be deemed wasteful and stupid. Putting good men a risk for no military gain. Funny how things change. HS

It was more a "morale" goal than a military one.

Someone mentioned that the U.S. was never invaded. Wrong: Japanese in the Aleutians and Wake Island. I think there were some other U.S. possessions in the Pacific also. True those were 'possessions' not states.

Harry K

 

[usmcsnco]

great, I wish people people would drop it, and quit repeating it, it simply isn't true. HS

HS:

You seem to be a pretty bitter person and feel as though your generation has been overlooked for their service in the current war. That is not so.
That said, the WWII generation, of which my father was one who served, was the greatest generation. Let me explain to you why they were "the greatest generation" and why yours or mine for that matter, isn't simply quite up to the task.
That generation came of age between 1914 and 1925/26. During that time influenza epidemics in that era wiped out tens of thousands of children in infancy. It was not unusual to find families that lost three or more children to disease. Infant mortality was at an all-time high.
This was the same generation that came of age and went to work in the "New Deal" and built as part of that effort the very highways that you drive on today. They built the bridges, railroads, and developed the National Forest that you're allowed to hunt on.
They developed technology that allowed your generation to fight our current war with advanced weaponry. Penicillin was developed, radar was first used, paratroopers and aircraft carriers were developed as well as the helicopter. They developed the first atomic bomb and many other devices that we are accustomed to today.
More so, in their generation, they did not march off to war knowing that in 6 months or 12 months they would return home on rotation...they went knowing they were there for the duration or the war and they had no leave, furloughs or R&R to take their pack straps off for a while and relax before returning to the fight.
They fought in mostly light clothing, without hot chow for the most part, no A/C or heated shelters. GORTEX did not exist.
Theirs was intense combat...day to day and often moment to moment, always advancing against a well-trained and engaged fighting force.
They battled tropical heat and European cold, not knowing the outcome. They did not have the luxury of MARS calls home, superior rates of fire of their weaponry, medevac's by helo, cell phones or cold sodas after a successful firefight.
It is not that you generation is not as good...but that generation set the standard.
Please forgive me, but I do not recall any battle in the current war where there were 6,000 casualties on a beach or 25,000 dead over three square miles of a Pacific Island, so don't tell me how intense the fighting was in the current war.
We had traumatic casualties in the current war, mostly due to IED's and while each life is precious and a terrible waste, there is no comparison to D-Day or Iwo Jima.
WWII was a collective war and virtually every American was behind it, supported it, or worked in it in one shape, form, or fashion...be it the bobbin boy at a spinning mill or the factory worker or the kid who collected scrape metal to turn in (not for $$$ either) but to simply assist the war effort.
Everyone was involved!
As to one of your comments that there were lots of Audie Murphy's in the current war. Let's see...I can't remember one case of a Lieutenant ordering his 18 man Company, yes Company...not Platoon, but 18 man Company to withdraw to pre-prepared positions while he held back an onslaught of five tanks and over two hundred dismounted infantry for more than an hour.
That Company, by the way, six hours before, had an effective strength of 121. In a crossing of the wood line earlier that day, 103 were killed or wounded to include every officer in the Company, except Murphy.
Lot's of Murphy's? Hmmm, only 13 Medals of Honor awarded during the War on Terror, by contrast in WWII there were 465 Medals of Honor awarded.
General's today don't lead men in combat. As a matter-of-fact General Norman Cota, an WWI vet and Division Commander in WWII was credited with personally leading a fire team in the destruction of an enemy machine gun position at Normandy.
Today we have more Admirals than ships in our Navy (that is factual) and Generals in the Pentagon who command a staff of three. As a matter-of-fact some of these general officers actually have retired generals mentoring them in their duties. Seems to me if a general needs a mentor, he shouldn't be a general.
Big difference!
As to the Doolittle raid it was more than worth it. The raid brought the war home to the American people and galvanized a nation at a time when it was desperately needed.
The leader of the mission, General (then Lieutenant Colonel Doolittle) received the Medal of Honor. Of the 80 men who participated on the raid, only one was awarded the Silver Star for the mission, and the rest of the crew members received Distinguished Flying Crosses. Another comparison, the dropping of the Atomic Bomb resulted in a Distinguished Service Cross for Colonel Paul Tibbets the pilot, and only a Silver Star each for the crew members. They didn't even know if the plane would survive the drop wen the went up that day!
Compare that to today where almost every soldier is a hero it seems. I concur with you on one point, they all look like Audie Murphy decked out with multitudes of ribbons and badges with 6 weeks I the Army. My point...Ike only had two awards of the Distinguished Service Medal, Patton had three.
General Petraeus has seven or eight and looks like a Christmas tree. He wears a Bronze Star Medal and he will not even release the citation for which it was awarded.
Everything has been "dumbed-down" these days.
Finally the WWII guys didn't come home and belly-ache about what happened to them and how their lives were uprooted. They came back, went to school, married, started families and sucked it up. Most never even filed claims through the VA for their injuries. They felt it was their duty, their duty and a privilege.
PTSD while a very real and debilitating disease, was never even spoken of.
That is why these guys deserve your respect and although you are entitled to your opinion, you aren't entitled to re-write history.
I have edited this statement pointed out to me by Turnkey4049 in response to my original post that most went back in the military via the National Guard or Reserves and served again in the Korean conflict in one capacity or another.

Thanks!

 

[turnkey4099]

HS:

You seem to be a pretty bitter person and feel as though your generation has been overlooked for their service in the current war. That is not so.
That said, the WWII generation, of which my father was one who served, was the greatest generation. Let me explain to you why they were "the greatest generation" and why yours or mine for that matter, isn't simply quite up to the task.
That generation came of age between 1914 and 1925/26. During that time influenza epidemics in that era wiped out many children in infancy. It was not unusual to find families that lost three or more children to disease. Infant mortality was at an all-time high.
This was the same generation that came of age and went to work in the "new Deal" and built as part of that effort the very highways that you drive on today. They built the bridges, railroads, and developed the National Forest that you re allowed to hunt on.
They developed technology that allowed your generation to fight war with advanced weaponry. Penicillin was developed, radar was first used, paratroopers and aircraft carriers were developed as well as the helicopter. They developed the first atomic bomb and any other devices that we are accustomed to today.
More so, in their generation, they did not march off to war knowing that in 6 months or 12 months they would come home...they went knowing they were there for the duration or the war and they had no leave or furloughs or R&R to take teir pack straps off for a while.
They fought in mostly light clothing, without hot chow for the most part, or A/C or heated shelters. GORTEX did not exist.
Theirs was intense combat day to day, always advancing against a well-trained and engaged fighting force.
They battled tropical heat and European cold, not knowing the outcome. They did not have the luxury of MARS calls home, superior rates of fire of their weaponry, medevac's by helo, cell phones or cold sodas after a successful firefight.
It is not that you generation is not as good...but that generation set the standard.
Please forgive me but I do not recall any battle in the current war where there were 6,000 casualties on a beach or over 25,000 dead over three square miles, so don't tell me how intense the fighting was in the current war.
We had traumatic casualties, mostly due to IED's and while each life is precious and a terrible waste, there is no comparison to D-Day or Iwo Jima.
It was a collective war and virtually every American was behind it, supported it, or worked in it in one shape, form, or fashion...be it the bobbin boy at a spinning mill or the factory worker or the kid who collected scrape metal to turn in (not for $$$ either) to assist the war effort.
Everyone was involved!
As to one of your comments that there were lots of Audie Murphy's in the current war. Let's see...I can't remember one case of a Lieutenant ordering his 18 man Company, yes Company not Platoon, 18 man Company to withdraw to pre-prepared positions while he held back an onslaught of five tanks and over two hundred dismounted infantry for more than an hour.
That Company, by the way, six hours before, had an effective strength of 121. In a crossing of the wood line earlier that day, 103 were killed or wounded to include every officer in the Company, except Murphy.
General's today don't lead men in combat. As a matter-of-fact General Norman Cota, an old WWI was credited with personally leading a fire team in the destruction of an enemy machine gun position at Normandy.
Today we have more Admirals than ships in our Navy (that is factual) and Generals in the Pentagon who command a staff of three. as a matter-of-fact some of these general officers actually have retired generals mentoring them in their duties. Seems to me if a general needs a mentor, he shouldn't be a general.
Big difference!
As to the Doolittle raid it was more than worth it.Tthe raid brought the war home to the American people and galvanized a nation at a time when it was desperately needed.
The leader of the mission, General (then Colonel Doolittle) received the Medal of Honor, in addition, only one Silver Star was awarded for the mission, and the rest of the crews only received Distinguished Flying Crosses.
Compare that today, where every soldier is a hero it seems. Point, Ike only had two awards of the Distinguished Service Medal, Patton three.
General Petraeus has seven or eight, and a Bronze Star Medal and he will not even release the citation for which it was awarded.
Everything has been "dumbed-down" these days. Finally the WWII guys didn't come home and belly-ache about what happened to them and how their lives were uprooted. They came back, went to school, married, started families, and sucked it up. Most never even filed claims through the VA for their injuries. They felt it was their duty.
PTSD while a very real and debilitating disease, was never even spoken of.
That is why these guys deserve your respect and although you are entitled to your opinion, you aren't entitled to re-write history.

Thanks!

Excellent post! I wanted to answer him but I don't have your command of language. Something not mentioned is a lotl those who came back transferred to the National Guard, got called up for Korea ?4? years later.

Harry K

 

[farmgirl19]

usmcsnco; Wonderful post! Thank you!

 

[houstonscott]

You sound like the guy trying to protect your history. That generations biggest failure was when they came home. Raised a generations of drug addicts and anti American idiots. A very few payed a high price, I salute them, most take credit for those few, and did nothing. HS

 

[usmcsnco]

Turnkey I appreciate the support!

 

[usmcsnco]

Excellent post! I wanted to answer him but I don't have your command of language. Something not mentioned is a lotl those who came back transferred to the National Guard, got called up for Korea ?4? years later.

Harry K

Harry:

It was my pleasure. I just had to do it, Houstonscott really launched my bottle rockets. His arguments were insolent and incendiary and without merit and to be quite frank, I had enough.

Thanks again for the support,

Dave

 

[usmcsnco]

usmcsnco; Wonderful post! Thank you!

Thanks Farmgirl, as I responded to Turnkey, HS has no clue as to what in the **** he is speaking of. I really quite honestly don't know where he got his understanding of history and the American experience.
Hopefully if it was from some obscure revisionists history written in some scholarly college textbook and not his parents.
Thanks again,

Dave

 

[usmcsnco]

You sound like the guy trying to protect your history. That generations biggest failure was when they came home. Raised a generations of drug addicts and anti American idiots. A very few payed a high price, I salute them, most take credit for those few, and did nothing. HS

HS:

I am an American and I'm not trying to protect anything. History is history and facts are facts. When the final episode of WWII and the greatest generation is written in a generation or two, the scholars will still refer to that generation as "the greatest generation and your meanderings or "Oh, whoa is me" attitude will not change that.
You defeat your own argument that you have been ranting about for days when you state the WWII generation is not the greatest etc etc and then write "That generations biggest failure was when they came home. Raised a generations of drug addicts and anti American idiots, " while still appealing to everyone else that the post-WWII generation is the greatest. I don't get it but perhaps I have found your problem.
Are you by chance one of those "drug addicts and anti American idiots" perhaps the son of WWII veteran who had his own human failings and did not give to you the time a father should devote to a son? It is possible, as we all have our own failings but that is not indicative of an entire generation. Lots of WWII vets had emotional problems after the war and many drank way too much, but that was for the most part a problem brought on by the ravages of war and human sacrifice.
You end with "a few payed a high price" or you kidding me? Really? You really are an idiot!
For the record that war brought about the deaths of 2.5% of the entire population of the planet, or some 80 million people including 50 million civilians and 30 million soldiers. More than 5 million perished in POW camps. That's not "a few".
In the U.S. Armed Forces alone, 416,000 were killed in action as well as another 1,600 civilians.
Whatever the case, stop feeling sorry for yourself, pick yourself up by your boot straps and do something good other than piss off a bunch of people on here. I might add, it appears that you are the only one who has the opinion that you do.